Questions about wheelbuilding: Spoke type and nipple length

I’ve built a number of wheels, and are prepping to build the next.  I have some questions about spokes and nipples.

Type of Spokes

I weigh 185LB and this will be a rear wheel for my weekend distance riding bike. I am looking at a good combination of reliable and lightweight. The rim will be a Velocity A23 , 32h, laced 3x to a White Industries T11 hub.

I’m looking at DT Swiss Competition spokes. They come in two thicknesses. 14/15/14 gauge or 15/16/15 gauge. I’ve built successful wheels with 14/15/14 gauges in the past. The weight difference is fairly significant: 50 grams per wheel when using 15/16/15 spokes.

Do you think the 15/16/15 spokes would be a good fit for my purpose?

 

Nipple Length

When using 15/16/15, the nipples come in multiple lengths: 12, 14, and 16 mm. Spoke length calculator that I have used do not mention the nipple length that is assumed. Which one should I order?

Thanks!

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Permalink Reply by Kevin C Dormant on December 5, 2013 at 5:05pm

But you know where this is going don't you?

Now Duppie wants to save those 15gr + the 50gr.

ilter said:

There you go!  Veloplugs save you 15gr according to this website. Practically the same reduction in inertia you would achieve by using lighter spokes.


notoriousDUG said:

Permalink Reply by Drewbacca on December 5, 2013 at 8:06pm


I missed that, glad you repeated it! Great tip indeed. Hell, wrap a couple of bucks around the spokes to keep them from making any noise and, well, in case you ever need a couple of bucks in a pinch. 


ilter said:

That is a very cool tip!

Michael A said:

[snip]  Last suggestion is to order a couple extra of each size spoke and store them in the bottom of your seat post using a cork from a wine bottle.
Permalink Reply by Duppie on December 6, 2013 at 4:50am

I've been ordering a few extra spokes with every build I've done. I never take them with me on the bike though.

Those aero spokes look nice, but building a wheel with those spokes may be above my skill level.

I think I'll give it a shot with 14/15/14 double butted spokes and forgo the 15/16/15 spokes for now. Maybe a I will built a matching front wheel with those spokes. And yes, Veloplugs are now on my list too! Thanks for that tip.

Permalink Reply by David P. on December 6, 2013 at 6:13am

Everybody gets one weight-weenie bike!

Kevin C said:

But you know where this is going don't you?

Now Duppie wants to save those 15gr + the 50gr.

ilter said:

There you go!  Veloplugs save you 15gr according to this website. Practically the same reduction in inertia you would achieve by using lighter spokes.


notoriousDUG said:

Permalink Reply by Duppie on December 7, 2013 at 5:58am

I have a follow up question:

Two spoke calculators give 294.3 mm and 294.4 mm respectively for the left side. Do I pick 294, or 295? If 295 is not available, could I pick 296?

Thanks.

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on December 7, 2013 at 8:20am

I would go 295 but 294 would work as well.  I would would probably not go 296 unless I had to.  I am not positive of the figure but I remember at some point learning you are OK .5 short or 1.5 long; of course I could be completely off base there but I have had no issues sticking to that rule.

Permalink Reply by Duppie on December 12, 2013 at 7:13am

Shame on you, Velocity! The veloplugs, a Velocity product, apparently do not fit the Velocity rims that I am using.

On the upside, I found a US made cotton rim tape. Newbaum's started making cotton bar tape and cotton-synthetic rim tape in the US. No more need to patronize the French. That's a plus.

notoriousDUG said:

Veloplugs

Duppie said:

Let me see if I got this right:

My best option would be riding a pennyfarthing. I'd have to save statisyically nothing and still get ahead. ;)

But I appreciate your, and others, advise. It is not just the 50 grams in spokes. It is a conscious effort to find an optimum between weight, quality and price: brakes, crankset, bottom bracket, rim, hub, tubes, bottle cages, seatpost, and hopefully tires are all components were I hope to save some weight. I hope to be able to save 2lb altogether

If you have any suggestions for leightweight, durable rim tape, I'd love to hear them too.

ilter said:

As far as I understand, there are certain forces you work against even if your speed is constant. These are air drag, tire rolling resistance, etc. And there are other forces that come into play when you are speeding up or slowing down. And these are inertia of the mass you displace, and the inertia of rotating parts.

Now, the weight of wheels is important in terms of rotational inertia, not nearly as much important in terms of overall weight of bike+rider. Rotational inertia is proportional to square of the distance from axis of rotation. I did a somewhat quick calculation. I think 50gr weight savings in a wheel's worth of spokes is identical to 20gr weight savings in tire or rim. When you consider a typical tire is 200 gr and rim 500 gr, the 50 gr you save in spokes, which translates to 20gr in tires, is really insignificant. At least to me.

Perhaps better to pick a lighter inner tube or rim tape instead :)

Permalink Reply by S on December 12, 2013 at 8:50am

There are two versions of the veloplugs for different size holes in the rim.  Did you check to see if both don't work?

Duppie said:

Shame on you, Velocity! The veloplugs, a Velocity product, apparently do not fit the Velocity rims that I am using.

On the upside, I found a US made cotton rim tape. Newbaum's started making cotton bar tape and cotton-synthetic rim tape in the US. No more need to patronize the French. That's a plus.

notoriousDUG said:

Veloplugs

Duppie said:

Let me see if I got this right:

My best option would be riding a pennyfarthing. I'd have to save statisyically nothing and still get ahead. ;)

But I appreciate your, and others, advise. It is not just the 50 grams in spokes. It is a conscious effort to find an optimum between weight, quality and price: brakes, crankset, bottom bracket, rim, hub, tubes, bottle cages, seatpost, and hopefully tires are all components were I hope to save some weight. I hope to be able to save 2lb altogether

If you have any suggestions for leightweight, durable rim tape, I'd love to hear them too.

ilter said:

As far as I understand, there are certain forces you work against even if your speed is constant. These are air drag, tire rolling resistance, etc. And there are other forces that come into play when you are speeding up or slowing down. And these are inertia of the mass you displace, and the inertia of rotating parts.

Now, the weight of wheels is important in terms of rotational inertia, not nearly as much important in terms of overall weight of bike+rider. Rotational inertia is proportional to square of the distance from axis of rotation. I did a somewhat quick calculation. I think 50gr weight savings in a wheel's worth of spokes is identical to 20gr weight savings in tire or rim. When you consider a typical tire is 200 gr and rim 500 gr, the 50 gr you save in spokes, which translates to 20gr in tires, is really insignificant. At least to me.

Perhaps better to pick a lighter inner tube or rim tape instead :)

Permalink Reply by Kevin C Dormant on December 12, 2013 at 8:53am

Without veloplugs or french rim tape, I'm concerned that the resulting wheel won't be pretentious enough.

S said:

There are two versions of the veloplugs for different size holes in the rim.  Did you check to see if both don't work?

Duppie said:

Shame on you, Velocity! The veloplugs, a Velocity product, apparently do not fit the Velocity rims that I am using.

On the upside, I found a US made cotton rim tape. Newbaum's started making cotton bar tape and cotton-synthetic rim tape in the US. No more need to patronize the French. That's a plus.

[snip]

Permalink Reply by Duppie on December 12, 2013 at 3:49pm

Don't worry. This bike will carry my seal of approval for smugness.

Seal Of Approval - smugness By duppie

Kevin C said:

Without veloplugs or french rim tape, I'm concerned that the resulting wheel won't be pretentious enough.

S said:

There are two versions of the veloplugs for different size holes in the rim.  Did you check to see if both don't work?

Duppie said:

Shame on you, Velocity! The veloplugs, a Velocity product, apparently do not fit the Velocity rims that I am using.

On the upside, I found a US made cotton rim tape. Newbaum's started making cotton bar tape and cotton-synthetic rim tape in the US. No more need to patronize the French. That's a plus.

[snip]

Permalink Reply by Kevin C Dormant on December 12, 2013 at 4:52pm

My concerns are allayed. Carry on. (and print extra stickers, please).

Duppie said:

Don't worry. This bike will carry my seal of approval for smugness.

Seal Of Approval - smugness By duppie

Kevin C said:

Without veloplugs or french rim tape, I'm concerned that the resulting wheel won't be pretentious enough.


[snip]

Permalink Reply by Duppie on December 29, 2013 at 5:31am

According to Jan Heine, cotton rim tape, French or US Made, won't work on tubeless ready rims. Since it is uncouth to challenge Mr. Heine opinions, I ended up with Stan NoTubes rim tape. About the same weight as Veloplugs, so I get bragging rights there...

Anyone in need of US Made cotton rim tape (21mm wide)?

Duppie said:

Shame on you, Velocity! The veloplugs, a Velocity product, apparently do not fit the Velocity rims that I am using.

On the upside, I found a US made cotton rim tape. Newbaum's started making cotton bar tape and cotton-synthetic rim tape in the US. No more need to patronize the French. That's a plus.

notoriousDUG said:

Veloplugs

Duppie said:

Let me see if I got this right:

My best option would be riding a pennyfarthing. I'd have to save statisyically nothing and still get ahead. ;)

But I appreciate your, and others, advise. It is not just the 50 grams in spokes. It is a conscious effort to find an optimum between weight, quality and price: brakes, crankset, bottom bracket, rim, hub, tubes, bottle cages, seatpost, and hopefully tires are all components were I hope to save some weight. I hope to be able to save 2lb altogether

If you have any suggestions for leightweight, durable rim tape, I'd love to hear them too.

ilter said:

As far as I understand, there are certain forces you work against even if your speed is constant. These are air drag, tire rolling resistance, etc. And there are other forces that come into play when you are speeding up or slowing down. And these are inertia of the mass you displace, and the inertia of rotating parts.

Now, the weight of wheels is important in terms of rotational inertia, not nearly as much important in terms of overall weight of bike+rider. Rotational inertia is proportional to square of the distance from axis of rotation. I did a somewhat quick calculation. I think 50gr weight savings in a wheel's worth of spokes is identical to 20gr weight savings in tire or rim. When you consider a typical tire is 200 gr and rim 500 gr, the 50 gr you save in spokes, which translates to 20gr in tires, is really insignificant. At least to me.

Perhaps better to pick a lighter inner tube or rim tape instead :)

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