Is It OK To Kill Cyclists? (NY Times)
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cohen on
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Social pressure? Saying you're an idiot if you don't wear one? Perhaps, you have a point. But, to be honest, I think the reason those who resist using one is because of social pressure the other way, that it makes them look geeky. If THAT is the reason someone resists, I'll stand by my characterization. There may be other valid reasons for not wearing one, I suppose.
Eli said:I don't doubt that mirrors have saved people from accidents now and then. But where do we draw the line in terms of putting social pressure on people?
They have those rear lights now that hook up to your brakes and get brighter when you apply them like car brake lights--I'm sure those could prevent some accidents. I know there have been times I've blown a stop sign because I had a car following very closely which I didn't think was expecting me to stop, and I was afraid of getting rear-ended--car-style brake lights would help in these situations. Should we start blaming people who don't have these lights when they get into such accidents?
The same is true of turn signal lights--I'm sure these would be a lot more noticeable to most drivers than hand signals (I am pretty sure a lot of drivers mistake my right-turn hand signal for a wave.) Should we start blaming people who don't have turn signal lights on their bike?
I bet there are times when having one of those super-loud air horns would save my life--my bell is pretty loud as bells go but it's still hard to hear from inside a car. Should we start blaming people whose accidents could have been avoided if they'd had an air horn?
There is no limit to the amount of safety equipment you can carry, but there has to be a limit to the amount we expect people to carry before we decide to stop blaming them for the cars that hit them--otherwise, we could blame every accident on the cyclist; after all, they could have been driving an armored tank and then they would have been fine! Where do we draw that limit?
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Permalink Reply by Adam Herstein on
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I have a mirror because I feel better being able to see what's behind me without having to turn my head. It's all personal preference.
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I DO believe that a mirror makes me safer. I don't believe that it makes me invulnerable. It's not a substitute for judgment or care. For example, I have cursed myself many times for not properly adjusting my mirror when starting to ride.
h' $550 said:I use a mirror religiously now, but I have never allowed myself to believe it makes me safer.
I think that like any tool, you have to constantly challenge yourself to be sure you're using it in a way that does increase your safety.
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Permalink Reply by Anne Alt on
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Well said, both Steve and Howard. I prefer to have a mirror to supplement peripheral vision. It's a useful tool to help improve safety.
Steve Cohen said:I DO believe that a mirror makes me safer. I don't believe that it makes me invulnerable. It's not a substitute for judgment or care. For example, I have cursed myself many times for not properly adjusting my mirror when starting to ride.
h' $550 said:I use a mirror religiously now, but I have never allowed myself to believe it makes me safer.
I think that like any tool, you have to constantly challenge yourself to be sure you're using it in a way that does increase your safety.
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Permalink Reply by Rich Scott on
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haul truck going 60 mph on a quiet open road. I'm watching it in my mirror. And watching...and realizing, "this MF'er is NOT going to move over!" I bale off to the shoulder. Sure enough....blew right by on the white line. Not sure if it was accidental or intentional....all I know for sure is my mirror saved my life. There's been a lot of talk in this discussion about blame and responsiblity....When you're dead who's to blame is kinda irrelevant.
Anne Alt said:Whether on street or path, I've sometimes had situations where I saw someone approaching from behind who was close enough to clip my elbow, handlebars or mirror. Having that advance warning has sometimes allowed me to move right and have enough free space to stay clear. And in situations where there is no space to move right, I've sometimes called for the person to ease up and wait a minute.
If it's a driver coming from behind and it doesn't look like they see me, I wave to get their attention. That's worked for me a bunch of times. Your mileage may vary...
Madopal (5.8 mi) said:And go where, exactly? Not sure what roads you're riding on, but in the city, my choices are bike lane next to parked cars (and there's no where to bail to there), no lane next to parked cars (see last point), or no shoulder/curb (and jumping the curb isn't exactly a decent option).
Also, if anyone here who wears a mirror can give me a specific, actual example of when they escaped a situation coming up from behind with a mirror (as opposed to a hypothetical), I'd really like to hear the details of the situation. Because in all my 25 years riding, I can't remember a case where somehow I had some way to escape such a situation, even if I saw/heard it coming.
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There is only one answer to this question. In the end we, must as drivers see each bicyclist as our children and drive accordingly. As cyclist we must ride thoughtfully to make our parents proud of us. When that happens Cyclist will stop being Killed.
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#2 works if you don't mind being honked at, yelled at, or otherwise harassed.
clp said:
Rich I think there are other ways besides a mirror to avoid these kinds of drivers:1. Develop your peripheral vision, particularly on your left side. It takes training. That way you can always monitor traffic behind every 5-10 seconds even if you've forgotten to adjust your mirror, or left it at home entirely.
2. Claim the lane. Ride more to the left...toward the center of that guy's lane. Don't ride that white line and let him believe he can "squeeze" by you. Make it clear to all vehicles that they're going to have to slow down and move over to the left to avoid hitting you. Don't be afraid to stop traffic in that lane if necessary. Because the next time, you may not have a decent shoulder to bail to.
Cars don't purposely rear-end other cars; neither will they rear-end bicycles...if they see them clearly half a block in front of them. Get out of the weeds beside the road, and claim your safe position in traffic that is your right!
Rich Scott said:haul truck going 60 mph on a quiet open road. I'm watching it in my mirror. And watching...and realizing, "this MF'er is NOT going to move over!" I bale off to the shoulder. Sure enough....blew right by on the white line. Not sure if it was accidental or intentional....all I know for sure is my mirror saved my life. There's been a lot of talk in this discussion about blame and responsiblity....When you're dead who's to blame is kinda irrelevant.
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The mirror I use is a high quality helmet mount mirror....it's a good design and is ALWAYS adjusted and stays adjusted. Plus I like the helmet mirror because it allows you to see ANYWHERE behind you. Want to see someone sneaking up on your right side you turn your head slightly to the left and you can see over there.
I agree 100% with you about taking the lane.....the mirror allows me to see WHEN I need to take that lane. It's especially helpful when I can see someone is going to try and pass me when there is an on coming car coming....I can move out into the lane to prevent the 3 of us from all meeting at the same time. I end up doing this EVERY TIME I go for a ride. Sometimes idiots STILL pass me and force the on coming car off the road (Coming through....I'm more important than everyone else on the road!!), makes me nuts!
I can not see any downside to using a mirror (even the nerd suggestion is bad because my mirror is COOL, it has a Peace Sign on the back of it!)....and tons for upside.
clp said:
Rich I think there are other ways besides a mirror to avoid these kinds of drivers:1. Develop your peripheral vision, particularly on your left side. It takes training. That way you can always monitor traffic behind every 5-10 seconds even if you've forgotten to adjust your mirror, or left it at home entirely.
2. Claim the lane. Ride more to the left...toward the center of that guy's lane. Don't ride that white line and let him believe he can "squeeze" by you. Make it clear to all vehicles that they're going to have to slow down and move over to the left to avoid hitting you. Don't be afraid to stop traffic in that lane if necessary. Because the next time, you may not have a decent shoulder to bail to.
Cars don't purposely rear-end other cars; neither will they rear-end bicycles...if they see them clearly half a block in front of them. Get out of the weeds beside the road, and claim your safe position in traffic that is your right!
Rich Scott said:haul truck going 60 mph on a quiet open road. I'm watching it in my mirror. And watching...and realizing, "this MF'er is NOT going to move over!" I bale off to the shoulder. Sure enough....blew right by on the white line. Not sure if it was accidental or intentional....all I know for sure is my mirror saved my life. There's been a lot of talk in this discussion about blame and responsiblity....When you're dead who's to blame is kinda irrelevant.
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Hey Davis.....eat me....I wasn't calling anyone anything. Don't wear a mirror....who cares?
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Hey, if you feel you're ok without one, fine. You seem to have thought about it and who am I to say? Maybe different people have better peripheral vision than others. It works for me (especially in places like the loop) and it works for others.
Yes, I'm apologizing for calling anyone an idiot for not wearing one.
I'll still question anyone who won't wear one because of fashion and I know there are plenty of them out there. And I've seen plenty of stupid moves by cyclists on the bike path (turning suddenly left without signalling, etc). who I think would be well advised to consider a mirror, but they probably don't read this site.
But my statement went too far.
Davis Moore said:Mirrors have a one word vocabulary and that word is "NO". They have blind spots, you still need to look over your shoulder to check if it's safe to move into a lane etc. and the action of looking over your shoulder helps to communicates to drivers your inentions. Anyone who has taken a motorcycle class will have been taught the same. (Not to mention the vast majority of accidents hapen in front of cyclists, not behind.)
If you're wearing one and relying completely on it to tell you what's happening behind you without confirming with you own two eyes, you're actually probably less safe. Wear one if you want, but don't call other people names for not, you sound like a manchild when you do that.
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You wouldn't think so, and yet about two weeks ago, at 7:30 on a Sunday morning I was clipped by the mirror of a car driven by an idiot on Sheridan Road in Kenilworth. There was ZERO traffic on the road other than this car, no one was coming from the opposite direction, I was riding in the proper place, in the right lane, but not in the middle of it. It was ridiculously easy for him to have avoided me, as 99.999% or other motorists do. I wobbled, but didn't go down, and wasn't hurt since his mirror buckled back as modern car mirrors do.
This driver was either a psychopath or a drunk. There is no other possibility. He drove off without stopping and before I could get his license number, but as the article says, probably nothing would have come of it if I had.
clp said:
Cars don't purposely rear-end other cars; neither will they rear-end bicycles...if they see them clearly half a block in front of them. Get out of the weeds beside the road, and claim your safe position in traffic that is your right!
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Permalink Reply by Mike Zumwalt on
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"...I see cyclists running stop signs like immortal, entitled fools. So I understand the impulse to see cyclists as recreational risk takers who deserve their fate."
If you take a chance and get hit it's your fault and I can see how it would be hard to identify with a cyclist who rides in such a manner,BUT even following the laws yourself has no control over other peoples actions. On a bike you ride defensively, or should be.
He wrote a story based on being a new cyclist, middle aged, riding a "fixie" in the city and veterans know the ins and outs better and what may look like taking a chance is normal for an experienced rider.
When I ride side streets I slow as I approach the stop and if no one is around I keep pedaling and even if I come to a stop the majority of the time the driver waves me through!
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