Red Light Cameras - Pro or No?

I've noticed that our friends at the ATA have become quite vocal in support of red light cameras.  I wonder if camera-love is widespread among their membership base (in which I'm included).  I always ride when I'm not working, but I have to drive on the clock, and I've been nailed twice.  Kinda rubs me the wrong way, especially because Chicago seems to have the shortest yellows I've ever seen.  Opinions?  
 

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Permalink Reply by Dan Korn on March 7, 2010 at 6:50pm
Thanks burden, great stuff.

There was a guy at the Break The Gridlock social last month who suggested that things would be better for peds and cyclists if only the traffic lights were timed better, so that drivers wouldn't have to stop as often, and would therefore be less frustrated. Unfortunately, he left before I had a chance to talk to him and explain the fallacy of his logic, that making accommodations to facilitate driving was a never-ending game which would only lead to more traffic, and eventually more frustration for everyone, and which was, to my mind, the complete opposite of what BTG is supposed to be about.

I don't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's not a cars vs. bicycles thing. It's a cars vs. people thing. There's nothing "zero sum" about saving lives.

People who drive (and I include myself in that group, occasionally) are not bad people, but they are both victims and perpetuators of a system which has evil consequences. It's certainly not the only such system, but it's the one that's the number one killer of children in this country. Fighting that system isn't about punishing people or making them feel bad for being a part of it, but it is about making them want to change it, and to change themselves as a part of it, and helping them to realize that facilitating that system, even when it may seem expedient, is only feeding into it.
Permalink Reply by Chris B on March 8, 2010 at 4:20am
Jessica said:
Do any of you guys regularly drive in the 'burbs? Because people just floor it from earlier out where I'm at. I don't know. I agree with the 1-2 second 'all red', but increasing the yellow times won't necessarily solve the problem.
That is anecdotal. it doesn't matter what we think or feel is the right answer, every city that increases the yellow light times reports a decrease in both t-bones and rear end collisions. We might THINK that "i'll just be more likely to run the red" but the facts show otherwise.

Science should be used to determine how to increase safety at intersections, and nothing else.

Of course at most intersections there is a lot to be desired, like the pics posted above. There are always infrastructure improvements that can be made, like the ones people post about sometimes from Holland. Even ones that make driving safer also make it safer for everyone else, since clear signals and signs, and giving people plenty of time, gives room for error and lends predictability to their actions.

It seems part of the purpose of infrastructure is because drivers and all of us are bad drivers/bikers/walkers and don't pay attention 100%. Which is why the designing for the minimum 3 seconds and people being perfect is a bad idea. Changing timing is a cheap step that can be done all across the city.

I think getting rid of the "either or" is what we have to do when trying to figure out how to increase safety.
Permalink Reply by Joe TV on March 8, 2010 at 6:36am
Chris B said:
it doesn't matter what we think or feel is the right answer, every city that increases the yellow light times reports a decrease in both t-bones and rear end collisions. We might THINK that "i'll just be more likely to run the red" but the facts show otherwise.

Science should be used to determine how to increase safety at intersections, and nothing else.

My thoughts exactly. We've argued this one into the ground, but since I'm not a physicist I can't break it down any further.
Permalink Reply by wig [ isaac ] on March 8, 2010 at 8:54am
I'm not pro or con. But I do set them off on my bike all the time. Twice this week the city got a good shot of me and my bag ..
As for ATA there just trying to keep all of us alive.
Permalink Reply by Bob Kastigar on March 9, 2010 at 12:03am
Check the POSTED speed limit on the street - it's 30 MPH. The length of the yellow light is in proportion to the speed limit. If you're driving over the speed limit then the length of the yellow light is too slow. The solution: don't speed.

If you're not speeding then the stop for the yellow warning is not dangerous.

This "shortest yellows" is a canard that's been started ever since the red-light-cameras started.

Next: I hope the put the cameras mid-block and use them to ticket speeders.
Permalink Reply by Jessica on March 9, 2010 at 2:32am
You wanna know that I think?

I think if it were that damn easy, Chicago would have done it already.

I think there are other factors at play, and I don't think they involve the red light cameras.

I think someone needs to be more responsible while driving and they wouldn't have to worry about getting caught, and I think that they need to pull up their big girl panties. Would you like some cheese with that whine?

If all Chicago had to do was make the light longer, and put a 2 second 'all red' to make the intersections safer, politicians would be clamoring to get that on their resume. There is SOMEthing holding that decision back. Considering I've never had a red light ticket, I don't really care. If someone cares to find out, super! (We have red light cameras all over around here, so no, it's not cause they don't exist.)

In the mean time, I suppose that we'll all have to drive like adults; ya know, going the speed limit and all that.
Permalink Reply by mike w. on March 9, 2010 at 3:25am
Basically. my issue is this: the camera is essentially a robo-cop. It does as programmed. If i get busted by a real live eye-winess cop, that's my own lookout. i can go to court and confront my accuser, win or lose. Okay, Fine.

Getting caught by a bot (even when the films are viewed by an anonymous "law enforcement officer") just strikes me as basically unconstuitutional -you never get to confront the accuser. Want to appeal? Pony up first, lose anyway and cough up more dough. Yeah, i understand that most traffic courts operate that way in general, but what ever happened to the "presumption of innocence" which is supposed to be a basic tenet of our legal system? What we have now is the burden of proof is shifted to the accused, which strikes me as Napoleanic. We're not in France or Mexico...

And, oh, BTW i often see these things flash people who have NOT entered an intersection. What if one gets stung because of a technical hiccup?

Even though i'm pretty good about such things as speed limits and lights, and so far haven't been pinched, i do have a problem with the whole robo-cop, One Nation Under Surveillance thing that seems to be becoming the accepted norm in this country. IMHO, the whole camera thing seems just another Revenue Stream... something every pol loves.

End of rant. Peace. Out...
Permalink Reply by Jessica on March 9, 2010 at 6:47am
I agree with what you're saying. I think the appeal system should be a little more 'innocent until proven guilty'. However, it seems like the majority of people whining and crying are those who got caught breaking the law.

One more thing: These lights, speed limits, and roads are designed by Civil Engineers. They DO know the physics behind it, and I'm sure haven't made it impossible to stop in time, assuming you're following all the other rules of the road.
Permalink Reply by Bike Bloke on March 9, 2010 at 10:04am
That's even better than the multiple flashes I saw when a funeral cortege went by.

Davo said:
I think its hilarious when critical mass goes through those intersections and the cameras are taking loads of pictures of us on bikes.
Permalink Reply by Bike Bloke on March 9, 2010 at 10:59am
Personally I'm for RLCs. I would like to see other cameras too that catch people 'cellphone driving' and texting. I consider these people the most dangerous on the road today.

There was an article in the Trib a few months ago, of which the salient points were:

1. Tickets are not automatically generated. Each case is reviewed by a traffic cop.

2. You will get a ticket if you do a right turn on red without coming to a complete stop beforehand.

3. If you are already over the line waiting to turn left behind another left turner, you are allowed to complete the turn after the change of lights.

4. The CPD's evidence against you should include a video clip accessible on line. If, after seeing the clip, you feel you have been wronged, contest it!

I'm surprised no one else mentioned this Trib article.

by the way, who or what is the ATA? I thought it was a defunct airline....
Permalink Reply by Bike Bloke on March 9, 2010 at 11:03am
I had great fun accidentally setting off the RLC at Fullerton and Narragansett on my bike. I was westbound on the sidewalk along Fullerton (Riis Park). The lights went red and I took advantage of the stopped traffic by bumping off the sidewalk before the crosswalk and then crossing on the crosswalk. Cue the light show. Fun!
Permalink Reply by Jack on March 9, 2010 at 11:40am
I have been nailed by the auto-ticket machine once. My situation was basically: I was coming up on an intersection going about 5 over, light turns yellow and I glance in the rearview to see a craptastic beater behind me. Now, split second decision... slam on brakes (not to the Lock 'em up leve, but quick decelleration) or roll through. I didn't know it was a red light robo-cop intersection. I chose to run the "pink" light since I really didn't want to trust the guy behind me to stop. I know the guy behind me got a ticket too, as his car was in the photo that they sent along with my $100 ticket.

In retrospect, I chose wisely I feel. Sure, I paid $100 for rolling through an intersection 0.12 seconds after it turned red (really, they give you the time). But I didn't get rear ended by a clunker and have my car in the shop and an increase in my insurance. That would have cost me at least double the price of the ticket for just the inconveinence.

As for the "short yellows" these red light cameras are strictly a money maker for the city. I don't think the city really has any intention of making the intersections safer. Just my couple of pennies worth...

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