So do we even have any form of moderation here?
So after the amazing shit show that was Gabe and Michelle crapping all over the message board here I think it is a good time to ask this question.
What happened here is ridiculous, two people were allowed to run wild like a couple of monkeys flinging shit everywhere. Regardless of who you want to see as wrong or right there the fact remains that they were allowed to carry on completely unchecked.
Why? Light moderation is one thing but why should two defective people be allowed to run wild like that? Especially when others have been kicked off for doing the same?
Didn’t we kick off Beezodog for hijacking threads and not letting an argument die?
Of course that leads to another thing; we have some loose rules but they never seem to be enforced, why?
So what is it, do we have an enforce rules or can people just do whatever they like? Because it mostly looks like people can just act however they want…
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on
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#31 of the rules of acquisition does not apply here.
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Permalink Reply by Gort 12-mile Pinklegneep on
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So that'll be your demonstration of how the real concern is tone and decorum then.
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Similarly we can see the concern here is how Michelle was stifling and derailing and browbeating.
Do your thing man but it's doing an amazing job of illustrating the disingenuous nature of the complaints.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Michael Ignacio on
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Bravo, sir. Well said.
Davis Moore said:I believe this is actually the second, maybe third thread in which "retard" was used and objected to by Michelle, and in which Simon and others attempted to dismiss, diminish and devalue her complaints, mostly by mansplaining to her how language works or how freedom of speech works or how she should feel about things or what someone's "intent" was, or (my personal favorite) how she should stop being a college educated liberal elitist. I mean shit, someone posted a cartoon implying she needed something that involved "dick". And then had the audacity to play dumb about why that is problematic. Anyone who would do that and not realize how incredibly mysoginistic that is is either completely out of touch or totally full of shit.
Michelle may have lost her mind and become an even crazier person than she maybe already was, but a lot of people basically antagonized her to that state and very few people stood up for her. Probably in large part because there aren't many of the types who would stick up for her on this issue on this forum because it is so hostile to anyone who speaks out about topics that are disruptive to the norm here. (It's also real convenient for people who want to keep using "retard" as a casual slur and pejorative that there are probably no actual people with intellectual disabilities on this forum to stick up for themselves. Much in the same way it was really easy to use "Gay" for anything you thought was "stupid" back when all the actual gays were in the closet.)
It's pretty clear what kind of community you have here, and it's pretty reflective of mainstream society at large: male dominated, sexist, ableist, hetero-normative, often times borderline mysoginistic and and certainly hostile and petty.
It's a shame because people often assume some sort of alignment between bicycling and progressive values, and that this would be a welcoming place for people with progressive views on something as complex and nuanced as calling people "retard", but sadly that apparently is not the case. It says a lot about the joint that Gabe et al are just your "lovable scamps" who always get a pass for being shitty because "Awwwwww, they love bikes though...".
I just can't imagine why more people wouldn't want to join your "community", where Gabe and the like can just antagonize someone by using hateful slurs until they've become a crazy person, then dox them, while the rest post "guy eating popcorn in a movie theater" memes, and at the end of it the victim of the feeding frenzy is jettisoned and your mascot/attack dogs are still where they always are. Seems like a recipe for stagnation to me but whatever, it's your sandbox.
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Permalink Reply by Sarah D. on
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Waaaaait: I can't believe I am posting here, but didn't someone mention that Michelle's was a duplicate account and that was part of the decision to delete her? Maybe I dreamt it and there's no way I'm slogging through this again to find it, but if true, I think that's a great moderation standard in a scuffle.
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Permalink Reply by David Barish on
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While I rode my bike this weekend this discussion has continued. I have read some, but frankly, not all of the posts. The conversation between Gabe and Michelle has sparked a valid discussion and a less worthy repetition. I have reflected on the original discussion and here is what I see:
Michelle objected to the use of the term retard. This is an outdated term that is not appropriate but I think has a lot less meaning than a word such as...oh, lets say nigger or cunt. Those two words are beyond outdated. The are offensive as soon as they hit the page. I thought twice before typing them but felt they need to be there to compare to Gabe's term. Had Michelle called Gabe out and moved on we all would have been better off and perhaps Gabe would have thought about it rather than reacted childishly to her continued whining on the subject. At this point the rest of us mostly tuned out and the conversation degenerated.
The real problem is what happened after the initial disagreement over what can be said. Gabe dug in and simply incrased the volume and intensity. He seemed to be intentionally baiting Michelle into even more shrill complaints about propriety. She, not seeing the forest through the trees, took that bait and ran with it until she was in a place where where she was isolated and alone.
I feel a need to speak to people at both ends off this conversation.
To the supporters of Gabe- I agree he can use this term and I agree that it is not a good choice (please note my choice of words here) to use it. If that's how he wishes to express himself we know who he is and we take his words in the context of the language he chooses to use in support of his arguments.
At stage two of the problem Gabe's offense is much worse than the use of the term retard. He was a bully and piled on increasing abuse. He was a predator in the forest seeing a wounded animal. He could not resist. Michelle was shrill and annoying but she meant well and did not deserve the abuse.
To the supprters of Michelle- Its fine to be a touchstone for ethics, propriety and morality. We can all use a dose of this. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT assume you always have the moral high ground. Do not assume that you can interpret right from wrong and that all who oppose you are part of the male dominated hedgemony of this female owned website. Sometimes the things you see are not best interpreted through the lens of your Freshman Women's Studies seminar. They are better seen as humans making poor decisions or bad netiquette that harkens back to the playgrounds of one's youth. Recognizing the vulnerability that is exposed in such behavior may help you see that this is not a powerful statement and may help you leave it alone.
As to part two, you too have a part in this. Once you state that a wrong has been committed you cannot take the ball home so none of the rest of us can play. You cannot sweep the conversation and sweep who participates. We are adults. This is not AYSO soccer. Everybody doesn't get a trophy. We are not living in the federation utopia of the 24th century. Shit flies and if it bothers you, duck.
Doug is an interesting case. He has been an active voice on the forum and often a divisive one. He seems to be aware of that and simply wants things to be fairly moderated. I agree with that. I think its a fine line to say that Michelle and not Gabe should be banned. Frankly I think neither should be banned but both should be spanked. That being said, I can live with the decision that was made. Its the increasing flaming and bitching that wastes our time and annoys the community. Still, I beg all to consider this when they post. Over the weekend, I did follow the thread. Numerous times I began typing a reply and simply deleted it thinking my voice would not add to the conversation. The more we do that the less we will need to resort to the wisdom of the overlords.
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Permalink Reply by Gecko on
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Exactly my thought on the whole situation. It was like being on an unsupervised 2nd grade playground where Gabe said something that Michelle didn't like, she told him she didn't like it, then he just kept shouting it into her face to bully and antagonize her. Then when the parents finally did come out, they blamed the victim of the bullying yet again, and she was the one who was suspended while Gabe continues to roam, free of any consequences of his ridiculous actions.
There are many forums that I belong to that have adopted far stricter moderation policies on vastly larger population bases with similar sized "staff" (volunteers) and better success rates. They are very pleasant and civil, and no one appears to be crying because their "free speech" is being limited. Heck, one of them even automatically replaces swear words when you post! So even if you type "fuck" in your post, the software switches it to "frank" before it goes live, "shit"="stuff" etc. etc. Why proper moderation seems so elusive for this particular site is still a mystery.
David Barish said:They are better seen as humans making poor decisions or bad netiquette that harkens back to the playgrounds of one's youth.
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Permalink Reply by Vilda on
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I never mind being the bad guy, but just so i'm clear, was i the only one posting?
The always even keeled Douglas told this wonderful woman she was "acting like a crazy person and a bully."
Also she even noticed that my responses had turned into Meme's cause her insanity knew no bounds.
Still my fav response was the GIF from Tandemonium of a man beating a dead horse. Still applies.
And since no one answered Sarah, she did have 2 accounts.
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Permalink Reply by Anne Alt on
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Very well said. Thank you Dave, for continuing to be a voice of reason.
David Barish said:While I rode my bike this weekend this discussion has continued. I have read some, but frankly, not all of the posts. The conversation between Gabe and Michelle has sparked a valid discussion and a less worthy repetition. I have reflected on the original discussion and here is what I see:
Michelle objected to the use of the term retard. This is an outdated term that is not appropriate but I think has a lot less meaning than a word such as...oh, lets say nigger or cunt. Those two words are beyond outdated. The are offensive as soon as they hit the page. I thought twice before typing them but felt they need to be there to compare to Gabe's term. Had Michelle called Gabe out and moved on we all would have been better off and perhaps Gabe would have thought about it rather than reacted childishly to her continued whining on the subject. At this point the rest of us mostly tuned out and the conversation degenerated.
The real problem is what happened after the initial disagreement over what can be said. Gabe dug in and simply incrased the volume and intensity. He seemed to be intentionally baiting Michelle into even more shrill complaints about propriety. She, not seeing the forest through the trees, took that bait and ran with it until she was in a place where where she was isolated and alone.
I feel a need to speak to people at both ends off this conversation.
To the supporters of Gabe- I agree he can use this term and I agree that it is not a good choice (please note my choice of words here) to use it. If that's how he wishes to express himself we know who he is and we take his words in the context of the language he chooses to use in support of his arguments.
At stage two of the problem Gabe's offense is much worse than the use of the term retard. He was a bully and piled on increasing abuse. He was a predator in the forest seeing a wounded animal. He could not resist. Michelle was shrill and annoying but she meant well and did not deserve the abuse.
To the supprters of Michelle- Its fine to be a touchstone for ethics, propriety and morality. We can all use a dose of this. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT assume you always have the moral high ground. Do not assume that you can interpret right from wrong and that all who oppose you are part of the male dominated hedgemony of this female owned website. Sometimes the things you see are not best interpreted through the lens of your Freshman Women's Studies seminar. They are better seen as humans making poor decisions or bad netiquette that harkens back to the playgrounds of one's youth. Recognizing the vulnerability that is exposed in such behavior may help you see that this is not a powerful statement and may help you leave it alone.
As to part two, you too have a part in this. Once you state that a wrong has been committed you cannot take the ball home so none of the rest of us can play. You cannot sweep the conversation and sweep who participates. We are adults. This is not AYSO soccer. Everybody doesn't get a trophy. We are not living in the federation utopia of the 24th century. Shit flies and if it bothers you, duck.
Doug is an interesting case. He has been an active voice on the forum and often a divisive one. He seems to be aware of that and simply wants things to be fairly moderated. I agree with that. I think its a fine line to say that Michelle and not Gabe should be banned. Frankly I think neither should be banned but both should be spanked. That being said, I can live with the decision that was made. Its the increasing flaming and bitching that wastes our time and annoys the community. Still, I beg all to consider this when they post. Over the weekend, I did follow the thread. Numerous times I began typing a reply and simply deleted it thinking my voice would not add to the conversation. The more we do that the less we will need to resort to the wisdom of the overlords.
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Permalink Reply by Chitown_Mike on
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I think it was more of a "better time and place" statement than "let's turn a blind eye". That is how I read it at least, I wasn't looking for the "hidden" (aka assumed) meanings in David's post. I did see the blatant antagonizing of Michelle on the grounds of free speech, and I saw her insistent pestering and belittling of those with opposing viewpoints on the grounds of "moral superiority".
Just waiting for Godwin's Law to show up......any post now.....
Davis Moore said:This just reads as a long winded apology for/defense of the use of discriminatory language on the grounds of not upsetting the status quo.
I'm sure the civil rights era was full of similar imminently reasonable sounding people saying things like "We all know segregation is a bad thing, but it's not that bad. Besides, trying to integrate the races is just going to cause too many problems. Let's just let nature take it's course and change will happen when the time is 'right'."
Thank goodness civil rights leaders didn't listen to the sage advice of the wise, old, white and self-appointed grand poohbahs.
David Barish said:While I rode my bike this weekend this discussion has continued. I have read some, but frankly, not all of the posts. The conversation between Gabe and Michelle has sparked a valid discussion and a less worthy repetition. I have reflected on the original discussion and here is what I see:
Michelle objected to the use of the term retard. This is an outdated term that is not appropriate but I think has a lot less meaning than a word such as...oh, lets say nigger or cunt. Those two words are beyond outdated. The are offensive as soon as they hit the page. I thought twice before typing them but felt they need to be there to compare to Gabe's term. Had Michelle called Gabe out and moved on we all would have been better off and perhaps Gabe would have thought about it rather than reacted childishly to her continued whining on the subject. At this point the rest of us mostly tuned out and the conversation degenerated.
The real problem is what happened after the initial disagreement over what can be said. Gabe dug in and simply incrased the volume and intensity. He seemed to be intentionally baiting Michelle into even more shrill complaints about propriety. She, not seeing the forest through the trees, took that bait and ran with it until she was in a place where where she was isolated and alone.
I feel a need to speak to people at both ends off this conversation.
To the supporters of Gabe- I agree he can use this term and I agree that it is not a good choice (please note my choice of words here) to use it. If that's how he wishes to express himself we know who he is and we take his words in the context of the language he chooses to use in support of his arguments.
At stage two of the problem Gabe's offense is much worse than the use of the term retard. He was a bully and piled on increasing abuse. He was a predator in the forest seeing a wounded animal. He could not resist. Michelle was shrill and annoying but she meant well and did not deserve the abuse.
To the supprters of Michelle- Its fine to be a touchstone for ethics, propriety and morality. We can all use a dose of this. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT assume you always have the moral high ground. Do not assume that you can interpret right from wrong and that all who oppose you are part of the male dominated hedgemony of this female owned website. Sometimes the things you see are not best interpreted through the lens of your Freshman Women's Studies seminar. They are better seen as humans making poor decisions or bad netiquette that harkens back to the playgrounds of one's youth. Recognizing the vulnerability that is exposed in such behavior may help you see that this is not a powerful statement and may help you leave it alone.
As to part two, you too have a part in this. Once you state that a wrong has been committed you cannot take the ball home so none of the rest of us can play. You cannot sweep the conversation and sweep who participates. We are adults. This is not AYSO soccer. Everybody doesn't get a trophy. We are not living in the federation utopia of the 24th century. Shit flies and if it bothers you, duck.
Doug is an interesting case. He has been an active voice on the forum and often a divisive one. He seems to be aware of that and simply wants things to be fairly moderated. I agree with that. I think its a fine line to say that Michelle and not Gabe should be banned. Frankly I think neither should be banned but both should be spanked. That being said, I can live with the decision that was made. Its the increasing flaming and bitching that wastes our time and annoys the community. Still, I beg all to consider this when they post. Over the weekend, I did follow the thread. Numerous times I began typing a reply and simply deleted it thinking my voice would not add to the conversation. The more we do that the less we will need to resort to the wisdom of the overlords.
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