Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gort 12-mile Pinklegneep on September 16, 2011 at 4:14am

It's got potential, but the thing about fuel cells is that they aren't an energy source, they're an energy storage medium. It takes energy to get the hydrogen, and our energy grid is Polluting As Hell. Same problem with battery-powered cars, really.

 

That'll still be less polluting than current cars just because cars are spectacularly inefficient, but the problem of where the rest of our energy comes from is a real one which makes the claim of zero-emission non-polluting cars a bit erroneous.

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Permalink Reply by John Greenfield on September 16, 2011 at 4:18am

I see what you mean, just as the current electric cars are only as green as the power that
fuels their batteries, FCEVs charged with coal power aren't particularly green vehicles.

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Permalink Reply by Gort 12-mile Pinklegneep on September 16, 2011 at 4:31am

I mean it takes energy to extract oil as well, but oil produces more energy than it takes to extract it. Extracting hydrogen takes more energy than the hydrogen produces.

 

This technology should continue to be pursued and all, but in its current state it's kind of a greenwashing thing where people can buy their consciences clear without taking down the systemic problems of how our whole energy structure is catastrophic.

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Permalink Reply by igz on September 16, 2011 at 4:48am

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Permalink Reply by Chris B on September 16, 2011 at 4:49am

 

I think Vinod Khosla has a lot of intelligent things to say on this issue. Mainly, with so many up and coming wealthier people in the world, no subsidized technology that's only cost effective in America and Europe will make the smallest dent. No incremental technology will make the smallest dent. We need transformative technology and new innovation.

 

His arguments are paraphrased thusly: What good will expensive electric vehicles (or any expensive green technology) be to the average Indian or Chinese person who can finally afford a vehicle/air conditioning/automated something we take for granted and wants one? Not good at all. They'll buy a cheap conventional version. No matter how many electric vehicles we buy in the west, it won't make a difference to the planet.

 

Regarding electric cars specifically:

There are also a host of problems with electric cars: our electrical grid is not strong enough and will require upgrading (i.e. spending carbon on new construction) while we already have a viable liquid distribution network in place. In addition to the same energy cost to create an electric car, it also uses far more rare earth metals, all of which are very toxic to mine and destroy the environment surrounding the mines, especially considering we buy these metals mostly from China with their lesser regulation. Electric cars are only incrementally more efficient than internal combustion, that energy is still created somewhere and will probably be from coal or oil. And on and on.

 

So while an individual electric car is better, if we are talking about getting a large majority of people using them, maybe natural gas or other cleaner liquid powered cars are better, due to not needing a new infrastructure to be built, technology being cheap and already existing, fewer rare earth metals needed, larger energy storage capacity, etc. At least for awhile that will be the case.

 

Eventually electric cars will be the better choice. But we have many other problems to solve first. And even in the end, an electric car is just one small step.

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Permalink Reply by Juan 2-3 or more mi. on September 16, 2011 at 6:36am

If someone would build a car that I can pedal to get its motion control and regenerative systems moving, I might consider buying into the gridlocked sheeple system of traveling the streets.

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Permalink Reply by Thunder Snow on September 16, 2011 at 8:35am

I think the many ghost bikes speak to that issue quite eloquently.

soud'side said:

Surprised no-one has mentioned the environmental devastation caused by cars beyond that involved in producing and fueling them.

 

 

 

 . . .  so, someone mention that!

 

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Permalink Reply by John Greenfield on September 16, 2011 at 9:54am

Uh, that was the main gist of my article: sprawl, congestion, traffic fatalities and obesity. Did I miss any?

soud'side said:

Surprised no-one has mentioned the environmental devastation caused by cars beyond that involved in producing and fueling them.

 

 

 

 . . .  so, someone mention that!

 

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Permalink Reply by Juan 2-3 or more mi. on September 16, 2011 at 11:58am

I do dig the Hydrogen bus.

John Greenfield said:

Uh, that was the main gist of my article: sprawl, congestion, traffic fatalities and obesity. Did I miss any?

soud'side said:

Surprised no-one has mentioned the environmental devastation caused by cars beyond that involved in producing and fueling them.

 

 

 

 . . .  so, someone mention that!

 

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Permalink Reply by Steven Vance on September 16, 2011 at 2:08pm

To better understand how hydrogen fuel cell electric cars work, I have attempted to explain it. 

How hydrogen cars work

 

This talks about extracting natural gas (a fossil fuel), importing some of it, and "reforming" it to get the hydrogen. 

I would like to update the summary later with information on how much energy goes in to producing X BTUs of hydrogen and X BTUs of gasoline. I believe that producing hydrogen requires more energy than we can get out of using hydrogen. In other words, it may take 10 joules of energy to produce hydrogen, but hydrogen only makes a car move forward by "giving out" 2 joules (a net loss). While it may take 10 joules of energy to produce gasoline, but gasoline makes a car move forward by "giving out" 12 joules (a net gain). 

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Permalink Reply by Jared on September 16, 2011 at 2:29pm

So what's the point?  And how can selling hydrogen be profitable?

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Permalink Reply by Thunder Snow on September 16, 2011 at 5:27pm

Solar power, windmills or generators that are powered from the movement of ocean waves all could generate electricity, which could either be stored or used to separate hydrogen from oxygen in water.  Coal and natural gas, like petroleum, are finite resources which will eventually get used up, though I suppose we could begin to produce some amount of methane from our rotting trash in landfills.  Or figure out how to recapture methane from cattle, which are terrific methane producers, from eating all that grass.

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