An alternative to Peter White Cycles

Do you like the selection of parts that Peter White stocks, but are frustrated with his refusal to move into the 21st century? There is now a new website which supplies a lot of the same parts (lights, hubs, connectors, brackets, etc.) without having to put up with Peter White's idiosyncrasies.

Longleaf Bicycles

Simple, clean website, online ordering, online order total display, fast shipping and mail tracking..

PS. I am not affiliated with Longleaf, but are happy with their service.

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Permalink Reply by ad on January 6, 2014 at 8:57am

I'm not sure of how the financials play out, but Smart Bike Parts always seems to me to be a prime example of how cycling shops can adapt to serve both ends of the market.  

SBP can often source anything I need (such as the 1" lugged and threadless steel fork I was after for an old road frame of mine) quickly and for a great price, while also offering the comfort of being able to talk to someone in person about what I need and have the shop install it (also for a good price) once the part comes in.  Their ability to offer things at such a low price is no doubt tied to the fact that they have a sizable internet presence to draw in sales and are not solely relying on foot traffic to make it.    

In reality, Peter White functions largely the same way.  He is a New Hampshire LBS, who also does a hefty amount of online sales as an (almost) exclusive importer of certain niche products.  He's a LBS with a sizable internet/wholesale presence, just not a Chicago LBS.  

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 6, 2014 at 9:04am

It won't because there is just to much cost in overhead and not enough profit in service by itself.

In the almost all other equipment service (cars, trucks, industrial equipment, etc...) the three things are very separate profit centers to the point that most shops/dealers separate them out into different departments that charge eachother.

Duppie said:

Interesting thought. Is each one of these 3 seen as separate profit centers in the automotive industry?

Tom Dworzanski said:

This discussion is fascinating. Are there solutions? Is a local wholesale business to distribute parts to bike shops feasible? Should/will cycling become more like the automotive industry which largely separates sales, service, and parts?

Permalink Reply by in it to win it 8.0 mi on January 6, 2014 at 9:05am

Can you deliver it right to my office with no shipping charge?  Amazon can, and they're a US based company.  So, yes, they are a LBS.



notoriousDUG said:

You can also buy that stuff at your local bike shop.

Crazy I know, right?

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 6, 2014 at 9:07am

Drop shipping of product is not an option the way the current wholesale distribution for bike and parts wholesale is currently set up sadly because I think it would make a lot of customers happy.  However, I do not think that is going to change anytime soon because providing that service would drive up product price due to the increased work to divide shipments and extra packaging which would actually hurt the local shop.

Duppie said:

Don't feel sorry for shaming me. In case you hadn't noticed, my replies are tongue in cheek.

But your shtick about online stores is getting old and repetitive. It may be a real concern, but the solution is not shaming. Bikeshops, like any other business, should adapt to the changing world: For example, provide in store ordering with shipping directly to the customers home, where the LBS takes a referral fee. Or build a community around a niche market (JC Lind, Boulevard Bikes, Uptown Bikes) or concept (Heritage Bikes).  Or charge a reasonable amount for help beyond basic questions. Mrs Duppie's retail environment does that. Does it turn away customers? Sure, but mainly those who weren't willing to spend money in your store anyway. You can even discount that fee against their purchase.

As far as high spending customers goes, on top of what I buy online, I spend about $1400-$1500 a year at LBS's (averaged over the last 6 years). How much does your average customer spend annually, measured over a number of years? 

Of course, if all this just serves as an opportunity for you to vent your frustrations, then I am glad to have provided you with an outlet for your venting ;)

notoriousDUG said:

Don't you have to buy from a shop to be it's highest spending customer?  I also don't think that book shops have to deal with anywhere near the degree of show rooming that bike shops do.  I bet a book shop has never had a customer come in, spent an hour or more fitting them and helping them figure out exactly what size bike they needed and what bike worked for them only to have them go purchase it online.  Or come in and ask questions to figure out exactly what it is they do need so they can save 10% by purchasing it online.

Sorry if you feel  I shamming you but local bike shops are getting the short end of the stick and somebody needs to say it.  Maybe I'm just self righteous about it but it annoys me to see people who are part of the 'Chicago cycling community' provide free advertising for online retailers when there are so many excellent shops out there more than willing to go that extra mile, shops run by people active in the community, for whom those lost sales make a difference.

I don't believe you talked to 5 or 6 shops and were unable to find a shop able to get what you wanted in a timely manner, sorry.


Duppie said:

Shame on me Dug for not putting in enough effort to find the right shop, for giving up after visiting a five or six shops, and instead ordering online. I am truly sorry I let you down once again ;)

Maybe you should read some articles about how locally owned, independent bookstores are once again thriving. Hint: They didn't do it by publicly shaming their highest spending customers.



notoriousDUG said:

If your LBS is not helping you to make sure you get he right part or provide you with advice you're not going to the right bike shop.  Lots of shops out there will give attention to your small order, you just have to put a little effort into finding the right shop.

Duppie said:

Of course I did, thanks for asking ;)

The only LBS on or near my commute route that I found remotely interested in ordering parts for me was J.C. Lind, who indeed stocks some of the common items (lights, etc). But he orders it with his normal orders, so it may take weeks for the part to come in.

Others simply weren't interested in my small order.

Dug, sometimes, ordering online is the simplest, fastest way to go, especially when an LBS provides no value-add for my purchase (i.e determining whether this is the part I really need, or explaining how to install it, etc.) And mind you, I am not shopping for the cheapest price either. These products have a pretty well controlled price, n-line or in brick and mortar.


notoriousDUG said:

Much of that stuff can now be found places other than Peter White these days, but I am sure you gave your LBS a call to check and see what the cost and availability was, right?

Duppie said:

You mean going to a LBS, tell them exactly which bracket you want, wait for them to place their next order with Peter White, which may require waiting for weeks, then go back and pick up and pay for the part?

Yes, you can do that too ;)

notoriousDUG said:

You can also buy that stuff at your local bike shop.

Crazy I know, right?

Permalink Reply by Legacy Frameworks on January 6, 2014 at 9:18am

Good to hear that there is a better retail outlet for what Peter White distributes, which I think is good for everyone. 

Permalink Reply by Eli on January 6, 2014 at 9:27am

Why is it tolerated on this forum for an employee of one particular business to harass and harangue anyone who mentions doing business with his employer's competitors?

The community discussion rules seem quite clear: "While we encourage all users to share their experience and ideas about services and products they have used or bought, this is not an appropriate place for advertising, promotion, campaigning, sloganeering, recruiting, lobbying, soliciting, marketing or proselytizing."

Permalink Reply by Tom Dworzanski on January 6, 2014 at 9:47am

Well you don't really find them all (at least not in any serious way) under one roof in the typical automotive business like you do in cycling. Sure, dealers want to change your oil, oil guys wants to sell you windshield wipers, and parts guys wants to install your battery -- but that's all minor compared to each one's central business. In automotive, the breadth, depth, and demand of the business is so large you really need separate businesses, not just profit centers. I think cycling may move the same way IF popularity continues to increase and manufactures move towards more styles of bicycles and proprietary parts.

It seems like the old bike shop model of supporting a couple major standards and a small handful of manufacturers with a few bikes each is clashing with the realities of new competition from every direction. The biggest question in my mind is how many SKUs can the typical storefront bicycle shop seriously carry. Right now it seems bike shops are starting to specialize but I don't see that working long term. I think it's much more likely that Trek (and others) will start opening company stores with big show floors to show off their massive line-ups which will trigger the separation of sales, service, and parts making the cycling industry like the automotive industry (including parts warehouses supplying local service shops).

Anyway, that's all pie in the sky thinking right now. What's more realistic is the possibility of someone opening a local wholesale business to supply bike shops. Perhaps several shops should get together to make this happen. It would certainly make buying bike parts more local than calling it local because the brown truck delivered it to the bike shop first. The distributor might even have the ability to take on manufacturing of generic parts.

This is just what comes to mind from my distant and limited view of the cycling industry. I love hearing opinions from insiders.



Duppie said:

Interesting thought. Is each one of these 3 seen as separate profit centers in the automotive industry?

Tom Dworzanski said:

This discussion is fascinating. Are there solutions? Is a local wholesale business to distribute parts to bike shops feasible? Should/will cycling become more like the automotive industry which largely separates sales, service, and parts?

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 6, 2014 at 9:56am

No, they are a giant warehouse with no staff on hand to know anything about bikes.

in it to win it 8.0 mi said:

Can you deliver it right to my office with no shipping charge?  Amazon can, and they're a US based company.  So, yes, they are a LBS.



notoriousDUG said:

You can also buy that stuff at your local bike shop.

Crazy I know, right?

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 6, 2014 at 9:59am

If you paid any attention you might notice I often direct people to my employer's competition locally.  My issue is with online purchasing not people shopping places other than where I work.  It is not about MY shop being hurt it is about BIKE SHOPS IN GENERAL being hurt.

Why is it not appropriate for me to say, 'buy local instead of online' but OK for Duppie to advertise a business?


Eli said:

Why is it tolerated on this forum for an employee of one particular business to harass and harangue anyone who mentions doing business with his employer's competitors?

The community discussion rules seem quite clear: "While we encourage all users to share their experience and ideas about services and products they have used or bought, this is not an appropriate place for advertising, promotion, campaigning, sloganeering, recruiting, lobbying, soliciting, marketing or proselytizing."

Permalink Reply by Duppie on January 6, 2014 at 10:06am

Why are places like Universal Cycles able to drop ship cost effectively from large distributors, and small LBS are not. Surely someone must have seen a business opportunity and developed an e-commerce platform for small bike shops that hooks directly into the QBP's of this world?



notoriousDUG said:

Drop shipping of product is not an option the way the current wholesale distribution for bike and parts wholesale is currently set up sadly because I think it would make a lot of customers happy.  However, I do not think that is going to change anytime soon because providing that service would drive up product price due to the increased work to divide shipments and extra packaging which would actually hurt the local shop.

Duppie said:

Don't feel sorry for shaming me. In case you hadn't noticed, my replies are tongue in cheek.

But your shtick about online stores is getting old and repetitive. It may be a real concern, but the solution is not shaming. Bikeshops, like any other business, should adapt to the changing world: For example, provide in store ordering with shipping directly to the customers home, where the LBS takes a referral fee. Or build a community around a niche market (JC Lind, Boulevard Bikes, Uptown Bikes) or concept (Heritage Bikes).  Or charge a reasonable amount for help beyond basic questions. Mrs Duppie's retail environment does that. Does it turn away customers? Sure, but mainly those who weren't willing to spend money in your store anyway. You can even discount that fee against their purchase.

As far as high spending customers goes, on top of what I buy online, I spend about $1400-$1500 a year at LBS's (averaged over the last 6 years). How much does your average customer spend annually, measured over a number of years? 

Of course, if all this just serves as an opportunity for you to vent your frustrations, then I am glad to have provided you with an outlet for your venting ;)

notoriousDUG said:

Don't you have to buy from a shop to be it's highest spending customer?  I also don't think that book shops have to deal with anywhere near the degree of show rooming that bike shops do.  I bet a book shop has never had a customer come in, spent an hour or more fitting them and helping them figure out exactly what size bike they needed and what bike worked for them only to have them go purchase it online.  Or come in and ask questions to figure out exactly what it is they do need so they can save 10% by purchasing it online.

Sorry if you feel  I shamming you but local bike shops are getting the short end of the stick and somebody needs to say it.  Maybe I'm just self righteous about it but it annoys me to see people who are part of the 'Chicago cycling community' provide free advertising for online retailers when there are so many excellent shops out there more than willing to go that extra mile, shops run by people active in the community, for whom those lost sales make a difference.

I don't believe you talked to 5 or 6 shops and were unable to find a shop able to get what you wanted in a timely manner, sorry.


Duppie said:

Shame on me Dug for not putting in enough effort to find the right shop, for giving up after visiting a five or six shops, and instead ordering online. I am truly sorry I let you down once again ;)

Maybe you should read some articles about how locally owned, independent bookstores are once again thriving. Hint: They didn't do it by publicly shaming their highest spending customers.



notoriousDUG said:

If your LBS is not helping you to make sure you get he right part or provide you with advice you're not going to the right bike shop.  Lots of shops out there will give attention to your small order, you just have to put a little effort into finding the right shop.

Duppie said:

Of course I did, thanks for asking ;)

The only LBS on or near my commute route that I found remotely interested in ordering parts for me was J.C. Lind, who indeed stocks some of the common items (lights, etc). But he orders it with his normal orders, so it may take weeks for the part to come in.

Others simply weren't interested in my small order.

Dug, sometimes, ordering online is the simplest, fastest way to go, especially when an LBS provides no value-add for my purchase (i.e determining whether this is the part I really need, or explaining how to install it, etc.) And mind you, I am not shopping for the cheapest price either. These products have a pretty well controlled price, n-line or in brick and mortar.


notoriousDUG said:

Much of that stuff can now be found places other than Peter White these days, but I am sure you gave your LBS a call to check and see what the cost and availability was, right?

Duppie said:

You mean going to a LBS, tell them exactly which bracket you want, wait for them to place their next order with Peter White, which may require waiting for weeks, then go back and pick up and pay for the part?

Yes, you can do that too ;)

notoriousDUG said:

You can also buy that stuff at your local bike shop.

Crazy I know, right?

Permalink Reply by Duppie on January 6, 2014 at 10:10am

Dug, what are your suggestions to adapt to the changes in the bicycling industry (proliferation of SKUs, low cost online competition, etc) beyond telling people to keep patronizing their LBS for fear of that it may not be there tomorrow?

Surely there must be solutions that preserve the benefits brought forth by changes in the bicycling industry and the benefit of having a LBS nearby. I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Permalink Reply by Tom Dworzanski on January 6, 2014 at 10:33am

The plot thickens . . .


peter moormann said:

Longleaf has similar stock to P.W.  ...funny as they are NH neighbors.

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