Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Active Transportation Alliance on September 27, 2013 at 9:36am

Wow! So many great and informative responses. If I'm hearing it right it sounds like the big 4 so far are (in no particular order):

1. Street harassment

2. Shoaling

3. Being talked down to at shops

4. A lack of non "girly" cycling clothing/gear

This is really helpful, thank you so much ladies of the cycling community. Please keep it coming.

Jason Jenkins
Education Specialist

Active Trans

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Permalink Reply by natalee on September 27, 2013 at 1:16pm

I think you're also missing something along the lines of "unnecessarily aggressive behavior from drivers" (or a more eloquent way to state it).   

I think there were a couple of stories related here that were along these lines. And I think this is a different category from general "street harassment," which is why I mention it. 

It's one thing to have someone whistle at me or have some dude shout from the sidewalk "Can I ride you?" when I'm cycling past. And it's an entirely different thing to have a driver follow me down the street in a car shouting sexist/violent language, or to have a car-full of teenage boys drive next to me while threatening to throw beer bottles at my head while laughing about how funny it would be if I died, or to have an SUV start to veer into the bike lane to pretend like he's trying to hit me and then hearing him laugh about it, or having a huge Cadillac drive up at full-speed behind me with his horn blaring because I'm waiting to make a left-turn in the turn lane.

That's not harassment. It's violent behavior. 

Active Transportation Alliance said:

Wow! So many great and informative responses. If I'm hearing it right it sounds like the big 4 so far are (in no particular order):

1. Street harassment

2. Shoaling

3. Being talked down to at shops

4. A lack of non "girly" cycling clothing/gear

This is really helpful, thank you so much ladies of the cycling community. Please keep it coming.

Jason Jenkins
Education Specialist

Active Trans

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Lisa Gordon on September 27, 2013 at 2:11pm

This is an awesome thread!!!  Here's my two cents:  This only happened once and it was over a year ago, but it was such a vivid and gendered experience that it sticks with me.  I was going north on Damen, waiting to turn right onto Fullerton.  I was about 3 or 4 cars back from the light, and the cab in front of me was so close to the curb that I stayed behind it.  Guy pulls up in a car behind me.  He wanted to turn into the Popeye's parking lot, and I was in his way. He asked me to move, but there was nowhere safe or legal for me to go.  I told him I couldn't get out of his way until the light turned without getting in harm's way.  So, he starts calling me "b*tch" and "f-ing c*nt."  I was actually afraid for a while that he was going to ram my back tire.  Had I been male, he might have used different slurs that were just as angry, but as it was, his anger was clearly at me being female and in his way for 20 seconds.  (I just expressed some disbelief that he was so angry and told him to have a nice day.)  I think this falls into the "verbal harassment" category, although it is specifically gendered verbal harassment.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda L on September 30, 2013 at 2:28am

Completely agree. There's a lot to be said here for the old feminist talking point, "Women look, men do."

Women have a lot of things sold to us on the idea that we don't actually want to cycle--we just want to look like cyclists. Why would a woman want to buy a cycling jersey? Obviously so she can look like a cyclist, so no need to make sure it's something that's comfortable and useful over a 100-mile ride because a woman wouldn't be doing that. Make sure it's pink, so people know she identifies as a real woman, and not a lesbian or ball buster (these being the kinds of non-real-women who would incoherently undertake the non-woman action of cycling). Sell them the kinds of bicycles that a woman would want to be seen on, in the unfortunate event she has to momentarily do actual cycling. 

A concrete example of this view in action: A couple of weeks ago, I bought a Long Haul Trucker. I bought it for the same reason any person would buy a Long Haul Trucker--so I could take it out for long rides and eventually tour without it becoming painful, because it's great for hauling stuff, because it's a joy to ride. The shop where I bought it was fantastic--very helpful, excited for me, and never made me feel like I should consider something girlier. But when I went around showing off my badass new ride to my non-cyclist friends, their responses were mostly about how manly it looked. "Why did you get a men's bike?" "That's an aggressive-looking bike!" I never thought a Long Haul Trucker looked manly--I just saw it as a beautifully built, useful bike. But it definitely is the kind of bike you do cycling on. No one's shelling out for a LHT just so they can look pretty on it. 

Then, after I told my grandmother about my first 40-mile ride on it, she called my mother to complain that it seemed like I was getting too much exercise. For some comparison, my brother is a model who works out 3 hours a day most days of the week. That's never raised any eyebrows. 

It bewilders a lot of people that a woman would cycle for exercise, commuting, and even just pleasure as ends unto themselves. No, I'm not trying to lose weight or "look fit." I just enjoy cycling. 

echo said:

Hi Jason,

Thanks again for opening up this thread. I think that you are on the right track with your list, however, there is just something about it that is missing. I sat here for a while just thinking about it.

Now, I know that it's just a quick summary of things said so far, so this may be me just going overboard with this...

What it is, at least for me, is really this overarching feeling that -- as a woman -- I don't really belong in the cycling world. It's this feeling that I really don't belong here. Not that everyone feels that way, but there are enough that make this feeling like a shadow--kinda always...there. 

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Permalink Reply by yai danche on September 30, 2013 at 12:27pm

Some extremist Islamic countries consider bicycles and other modes where you have to put something between your legs to be lewd and women are banned from riding bicycles and scooters, etc.  And on horses and camels, they have to sit side saddle.  

Although most Americans don't view cycling and women this way, I do think there's an "unladylike" perception to cycling.  Mostly having to do with sweat and looking overly "athletic."  My older female relatives lament that my calves are getting too bulky (newsflash, my body just does what it wants!).

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Permalink Reply by yaj 7.4 on September 30, 2013 at 3:06pm

I have to say, I'm impressed with all the thoughtful comments from my sister cyclists. You all are making me proud to be a cyclist and a feminist in Chicago. 

The list has covered my most common concerns, including verbal harassment and shoaling.  I'm super fortunate in my choices of bike shops, because both Comrade (nearest to work) and Uptown (nearest to home) are fantastic.  So I haven't experienced that bike shop talk down in years.

I have one issue that may not have been discussed: fear. 

There are certain roads or routes that I’ll only ride during the day, because I’m afraid to be somewhere too isolated after dark.  So I’ll ride an industrial corridor short cut on my way into work, but not on my way home.  I wonder how many female cyclists regularly consider safety or perceived safety when choosing or taking routes? 

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Permalink Reply by Michelle on September 30, 2013 at 6:05pm

Michael A. I'm sorry but did you read ANY of the nuanced discussion here? Did you read my encounter with a motorcyclist, and several other truly scary gendered encounters? Did you read the part about how it's really different when someone shouts gendered terminology? Did you read the parts where there's a lot of discussion about noted percentages of male and female shoalers?

Salmoning probably isn't gendered which is why NO ONE brought it up.

Two ways you can help:
1) go back and read
2) stop pretending that men and women have the same experiences as cyclists. It's called erasure. You aren't an ally if you don't take our words for what our experiences are.

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Permalink Reply by Michelle on September 30, 2013 at 6:08pm

I definitely chose where I ride for safety - I wrote here about that bad experience on Milwaukee at night- I haven't taken Milwaukee alone in the dark since. I often find myself wondering if I'm tempting fate by being outside in the city at night alone In general, though I feel much safer on my bike while moving. I definitely get weirded out when I have to stop at stoplights in the dark. I always get that "someone's watching Me" horror movie feeling and expect someone to jump me. I carry a small blunt weapon just in case... But I can't hold it while I ride.

yaj 7.4 said:

I have to say, I'm impressed with all the thoughtful comments from my sister cyclists. You all are making me proud to be a cyclist and a feminist in Chicago. 

The list has covered my most common concerns, including verbal harassment and shoaling.  I'm super fortunate in my choices of bike shops, because both Comrade (nearest to work) and Uptown (nearest to home) are fantastic.  So I haven't experienced that bike shop talk down in years.

I have one issue that may not have been discussed: fear. 

There are certain roads or routes that I’ll only ride during the day, because I’m afraid to be somewhere too isolated after dark.  So I’ll ride an industrial corridor short cut on my way into work, but not on my way home.  I wonder how many female cyclists regularly consider safety or perceived safety when choosing or taking routes? 

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Permalink Reply by Bez on September 30, 2013 at 11:06pm

Frankly, no one should have to feel that they need to carry a weapon, and your experience was extremely bad.  I'm also reminded of what happened to Jana Kinsman and can't help but wonder if those assholes would have done that to a male cyclist.

May or may not be helpful to you, but I carry a small clip-on knife on my left pocket.  I do it because it's a tool* and because it makes me feel better to have it in case someone grabs me.  Having it in the spot that I do makes it easy to access if I need it.  Obviously, people's comfort levels are different (I wouldn't carry a gun, for example, but ok with a knife), but you can very various personal protection weapons with clips to attach somewhere handy.

Since you mentioned blunt weapons, here's an asp with a clip.  I'm not an asp user, so I have no real world reviews on this. 

*so that folks don't think I'm a complete psycho, I only normally use my cycling knife for actual tool uses like cutting tire patches and such.  While I have pulled it out in the past, I can count the number of times on one hand over the last 10+ years and only when I felt very very threatened.
Michelle said:

I carry a small blunt weapon just in case... But I can't hold it while I ride.

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Permalink Reply by M G on October 1, 2013 at 2:57am

I think in the case of shoaling, it is a cycling specific issue. I can't think of too many other situations in which a man would so obviously assume he is better than me at something and act on that thought so blatantly (likely, because I am a woman--or at least, it feels like that to me). 

My closest analogy is driving, men don't over take my car on the right at every light because they see that I'm a woman. Sure, some people will do that to anyone and everyone, but on a bike it is a repeated and frequent occurrence. 

Michael A said:

 Men have to deal with shoaling, salmoning and harassing motorists. I am sure the comments are different but still as spiteful. I am curious if there are more female specific issues, and then wondering how  cyclists can help address these issues.

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Permalink Reply by Gort 12-mile Pinklegneep on October 1, 2013 at 3:28am

It turns out stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum with discrete things just floating about disconnected nor is there much value in trying to tweeze apart exactly, precisely what isolated form of oppression is happening at one given moment. 

Also, the whole "sorry you took my post the way you did, I was merely" is pretty shitty. The failure wasn't on her part, or any misunderstanding. The problem is that this sort of mosey-on-in-with-the-dude-reckons post is dismissive and derailing, illuminates nothing and happens all the freakin time. 

Michael A said:

Michelle, I am sorry you took my post as you did. I was merely trying to separate the things that are specific to being female from being a female cyclist. The cat calls and such happen as a pedestrian. The "mansplaining" must happen in other areas then cycling. Social issues like these are far from unique to cycling. In my socially inept way I was asking to hear about cycling specific issues. 

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Permalink Reply by Gort 12-mile Pinklegneep on October 1, 2013 at 3:29am

"It's not a man's bike. It is my bike." 

echo said:

"Why did you get a man's bike?" 

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