Leapfrogging other cyclists @ intersections

So the story starts on any random commute into or out of the loop on Milwaukee.   

A cyclist, or many cyclists, passes another rider that is moving at a casual rate, struggling to climb over a bridge, having difficulty with the wind, etc.   These same cyclists stop at a red light and the peloton starts to queue up forming up a bunch of riders.   Just before the light turns green said straggling rider catches up and sneaks by the group bunched up at the light to either run the red, sneak into the middle of a 6 way or just cut around the group of people waiting there and get to the front.

Maybe it’s a coincidence that the stragglers get to the light very close to when it goes green but it leads me to believe that they are experienced commuters that have a well -practiced understanding of the light’s timing.  What I don’t understand is how someone who has kind of experience thinks it’s a wise idea to pass riders at a red light that are obviously going faster.

Have any of you run into a similar situation?  I’m wondering what a good response would be.

Very often I’ll wait till traffic is clear and then pass, but this messes with my timing of the lights and normally results in the same cyclist catching and pulling a similar stunt at the next light.  If they are catching me every light it seems reasonable that I just go slower and enjoy the ride… but short of having this song and dance happen more than once how am I supposed to know the slow poke is timing lights?

I’ve started getting snarky after passing someone twice and then having them try to sneak around me on the right while stopped at a light asking, “Do you really need me to pass you again?”  I can understand going only as fast as the slowest rider in protected lanes but is that really my only alternative for dealing with this kind of rider?

Ideas? or provide a perspective from the leapfrogger? 

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on April 18, 2012 at 6:15am

No.

I time lights and my ride to keep momentum; why should be penalized by having to wait behind people who sprint light to light? It's not my fault they don't know how to time lights.

John Wirtz said:

How about we all stop at the red lights and wait behind whoever was there first.

Permalink Reply by Derek on April 18, 2012 at 10:38am

Thanks for all the comments. 

When I started commuting daily I had all kinds of bad habits, no lights, poorly aimed front light, dark clothes, ran red lights, passed other cyclists on the right, didn't say "on your left" while passing on LSP... but cycling is an adventure and something to work at and grow with.  Many of those bad habits were curbed via posts from Chainlinkers or group rides. 

I was hoping this issue would be as simple as, "I think the general etiquette is only pass if you are riding @ twice the rate as the person in front of you"

or "The average acceptable speed is 10mph on the Milwaukee bike lane and passing anyone going slower seems reasonable"

or "If you have to pass someone more than once, don't" 

But based on the responses I’m going walk away with, “Keep my mouth shut and ride at my own safe pace.”  :[

Permalink Reply by Lanterne Rouge on April 18, 2012 at 3:34pm

Weird. My commute is so lonesome since I'm heading as far NW in the city as you can go. I've seen maybe a handful of people going my way on my commute.

But, I can understand leapfrogging and how annoying it can be. Passing to the left can sometimes be awfully treacherous, and having to do that constantly must suck. 

Since I am clueless in this respect - what IS the average speed heading SE on Milwaukee or Elston during the morning commute? I'm lucky that I can haul ass @ 16-18mph non-stop on my commute in to work, but that's on residential streets and otherwise empty main thoroughfares.  

Permalink Reply by Ben R. on April 20, 2012 at 8:50am

Here's my $0.02 rant:

I commute down Milwaukee regularly.

I ride 17-21mph depending on wind direction.

I can sprint 25-28mph.

I stop at every. single. red. light.

Even if my lane continues through.

Even if there's no Traffic.

I stop at every. single. stop sign.

Except MAYBE, on a residential side street, with no one around, I MIGHT roll through it at 3-4 mph.

Otherwise. An actual, foot on the ground or crank-stand-move-backwards-then-go: STOP.

I see NO ONE else stop at these redlights/stop signs. they roll them. they do the fake right turn-U turn. whatever. they don't obey the traffic laws. laws made by the man. the man who favors cars. they're rebels, I'm sure, ... but in they loose the moral high ground. Next time a car cuts any cyclist off, I know that they're thinking

'damn kids on bikes never follow the rules anyways always weaving in and out of everywhere how can I predict that?'.

I leap frog the red light runners people daily. I dislike it. it feels unsafe when I have to move out into traffic to do it, I feel uneasy seeing them run the red as they pass me.

I don't want them biking any further to the right because of dooring... the lane is really only wide enough for 1 cyclist. I pass in the car lane, and I think that's the right etiquette?

But the real rub is that I worry about these people. I like them and I wish there were more cyclists of every calibre out there, and I worry that one of these days they'll run the red light. and there will be one less bicyclist and one more ghost bike. Every new cyclist comes in seeing all the 'experienced' 'cool' kids run the reds... and thinks that this is 'OK'... and maybe it is, until you've gained the 'experience' of being doored. of being tossed over the hood of a speeding civic or knowing that friends and acquaintances  no longer because they ran a red and a driver speed up to make a yellow.

If you can time the lights and roll past me, that's fine. I'll pass you when I get the next window in car traffic and can move that far left... but please don't run the red lights.

I feel very strongly about this.

I HATE playing Leapfrog with the red light runners like I do every single day.

But not because the leap frogging is annoying, which it is. Deal with it. But safely.

Sorry for the rant, I know it got a little off topic, because the people I play leapfrog with every day, the only reason I have to pass them more than once is because I stop at the reds, and they dont.

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on April 20, 2012 at 9:06am

Good for you...

Permalink Reply by MagMileMarauder on April 20, 2012 at 9:36am

Sprinting at 25-28mph on a street (not velodrome) doesn't sound very safe for somebody who obeys EVERY traffic light and stop sign. Get off your high horse, pal.



Ben Raines said:

Here's my $0.02 rant:

I commute down Milwaukee regularly.

I ride 17-21mph depending on wind direction.

I can sprint 25-28mph.

I stop at every. single. red. light.

Even if my lane continues through.

Even if there's no Traffic.

I stop at every. single. stop sign.

Except MAYBE, on a residential side street, with no one around, I MIGHT roll through it at 3-4 mph.

Otherwise. An actual, foot on the ground or crank-stand-move-backwards-then-go: STOP.

I see NO ONE else stop at these redlights/stop signs. they roll them. they do the fake right turn-U turn. whatever. they don't obey the traffic laws. laws made by the man. the man who favors cars. they're rebels, I'm sure, ... but in they loose the moral high ground. Next time a car cuts any cyclist off, I know that they're thinking

'damn kids on bikes never follow the rules anyways always weaving in and out of everywhere how can I predict that?'.

I leap frog the red light runners people daily. I dislike it. it feels unsafe when I have to move out into traffic to do it, I feel uneasy seeing them run the red as they pass me.

I don't want them biking any further to the right because of dooring... the lane is really only wide enough for 1 cyclist. I pass in the car lane, and I think that's the right etiquette?

But the real rub is that I worry about these people. I like them and I wish there were more cyclists of every calibre out there, and I worry that one of these days they'll run the red light. and there will be one less bicyclist and one more ghost bike. Every new cyclist comes in seeing all the 'experienced' 'cool' kids run the reds... and thinks that this is 'OK'... and maybe it is, until you've gained the 'experience' of being doored. of being tossed over the hood of a speeding civic or knowing that friends and acquaintances  no longer because they ran a red and a driver speed up to make a yellow.

If you can time the lights and roll past me, that's fine. I'll pass you when I get the next window in car traffic and can move that far left... but please don't run the red lights.

I feel very strongly about this.

I HATE playing Leapfrog with the red light runners like I do every single day.

But not because the leap frogging is annoying, which it is. Deal with it. But safely.

Sorry for the rant, I know it got a little off topic, because the people I play leapfrog with every day, the only reason I have to pass them more than once is because I stop at the reds, and they dont.

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on April 20, 2012 at 9:46am

Sprinting at 25-28mph isn't nearly as dangerous in the land of make-believe. 

MagMileMarauder said:

Sprinting at 25-28mph on a street (not velodrome) doesn't sound very safe for somebody who obeys EVERY traffic light and stop sign. Get off your high horse, pal.

Permalink Reply by David on April 20, 2012 at 10:01am

Really?  You stop every time at Milwaukee/Paulina and at Milwaukee/Elston going southeast, and at Milwaukee/Noble going northeast? Do you wait for the light to turn green, or do you just do an Iowa stop?  I presume the former since otherwise your rant makes little sense.   Do you get out of the bike lane to let others get by, or do you force the other cyclists to go around you? 

I'm not surprised you see no one else do this.  I've probably passed those intersections thousands of times and I have honestly never seen a bike stopped there for a red light.  Of course, I've seen many cyclists wait for pedestrians in the crosswalk, I do that also, but I've never seen somebody waiting at those 3-ways when there was no traffic.  Has anybody else witnessed this?  I'm really just fascinated.  How often do you do this?



Ben Raines said:

Here's my $0.02 rant:

I commute down Milwaukee regularly.

I ride 17-21mph depending on wind direction.

I can sprint 25-28mph.

I stop at every. single. red. light.

Permalink Reply by blair on April 20, 2012 at 10:06am

I bike up and down Milwaukee 5 days/week.  I never see anyone (including myself) completely stop and wait for the light to turn at these intersections when there's no traffic from the opposite direction.  Don't see a reason to either as long as you're yielding to pedestrians.

There is nothing wrong with riding fast and passing others.  If I'm courteous enough to say "on your left" and give plenty of room (taking the lane when needed), others can be courteous enough to not leapfrog me over and over at each light.  It's more dangerous for both of us.

Permalink Reply by Ben R. on April 20, 2012 at 10:23am

I do actually stop for those particular 3 way intersections and wait the full count of the light. almost every morning. about 8am. Particularly the Elston Milwaukee intersection because the bicycle lane  kinda dissolves there and there are 2 lanes from Elston that come in turning left and the drivers there aren't looking for a bike to be coming out. There's usually a white service van parked at this location and I pull to the right further than the bike lane to stay in the 'shaddow' of that van and clear of the bike lane.

Its a pretty extreme position on red lights. But I  figure that if bikes are traffic and deserve space on the road, then bikes should follow all the rules of traffic on the road that they expect everyone else to. I believe that being traffic is more of a responsibility than an right.

And I'm genuinely sorry that I'm such a prick by nature, if anyone knows how to climb off a high horse. I am actually looking for ways to do that.

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on April 20, 2012 at 10:29am

I'll start stopping at lights and signs when the speed limit is 15mph.

Permalink Reply by Cheryl on April 20, 2012 at 11:29am

I'm neither the fastest nor the slowest rider out there, so I try to be conscious of other riders and our relative speeds, and be courteous about riding to the right when possible and not leapfrogging. 

When I think of "leapfrogger" I don't think of riders timing the lights, but of those bicyclists who, for whatever reason, are riding at a much slower pace generally, get passed by those who are riding at a faster pace, then "elbow" their way to the front at the red light. They haven't timed it and often are at a full stop; they just feel the need to be in front. And it is annoying to have to pass them repeatedly, especially as there are some stretches of Milwaukee where there isn't room to pass until you can take the lane. 

Which leads me to the other comment that came to mind as I read some of the previous responses: it annoys me when certain speedsters cannot wait to pass, but whiz by between traffic and me. If you can't wait just a bit longer for enough room to pass safely, you need to chill out. So a big thanks to those of you who do wait for a safe margin.

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