Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 2, 2012 at 6:14pm

Let me qualify this by saying I am very much all about dogs, animals in general really, and I am not singling out any breed but it is important to remember that any animal can become dangerous to a person, even one owned by a kind and caring owner.  Animals, especially dogs, can have a set of triggers that owners not only do not understand but can be completely unaware of.  I have seen usually kind and well behaved dogs go nuts and attack other animals or charge a person for no reason apparent to any person around them. I was once attacked and bit by a dog I usually saw on an almost daily basis, a dog that was usually always happy to see me, both before and after the incident, I just happened to approach it in a manner that triggered what ever made it attack.

Things like that are why there are leash laws.  Laws that people often ignore because 'their dog would never do that.'   It's not a malicious or awful thought to have; just a short sighted and ignorant one.  The owners of the dogs in question could be really good pet owners and the dogs may have just been properly leashed because they did not want to believe their dog could do that.  The owner of the dog that bit me was a great pet owner, but they did learn from the lesson and no longer let their dog roam free about their shop.

Jeremy said:

WGN just said police have someone in custody, likely the owner, but no charges pending yet. This is a terrifying story, not just for the attack but also for the idea that there are truly awful pet owners out there whose dogs turn out capable of something like this. Everything about this story is terrible.

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Permalink Reply by Thunder Snow on January 2, 2012 at 8:52pm

Some slightly differing advice from Cherie Travis, Commissioner of Chicago Animal Care & Control:

“Our advice to anybody is if you’re out someplace (and a dog charges), you’re not going to outrun it so be as still as possible, don’t make eye contact and look down. If a dog is acting threatening, curl up into a ball and try to protect your internal organs.”

 

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Permalink Reply by Zoetrope on January 3, 2012 at 6:26am

I really hope it becomes more common for shelters and such to provide good general info to adopters about how to treat and train dogs.  There is a lot of ignorance and misinformation out there about dogs and dog behavior, to say the least, and I think this would help curb aggression.  For the people who buy their dogs in shady ways or flat out steal them, you face much more uphill battle but any little bit helps I think. 

I saw someone mention not to make eye contact, and that's a good idea.  Also, try to have your body sideways to the dog, instead of pointing your body directly at it, which is intimidating to aggressive and fearful dogs.  

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Permalink Reply by Julie Aberman (Hochstadter) on January 3, 2012 at 7:40am

I was chased my a dog who got off lease at the Apple Cider Century.  Luckily the dog just barked and eventually got tired, but it was damn scary.  

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Permalink Reply by rik on January 3, 2012 at 10:27am

Jeff: I concur that this is firstly an issue of the dog owner's who has to be held accountable. And secondly it is an issue for the city of Chicago that allowed it to happen.

Many times when these type of incidents occur the public news media just try to close the story and say case closed when it is learned that the dogs were killed by police.

The dogs are the victims of this reckless fool just as much as anyone they attack.

Any fool can train a little Chiwawa dog to attack and let it go wild and it would not be such a public threat; however because those dogs are a big dangerous breeds they require a much higher level of responsibility and therefore we have to hold the owners to a much higher level of accountability. I do  charge the owners with attempted manslaughter.

Those big dangerous dogs should be in a separate category and should not be allowed in public.

Any one who want one should have to get permit just like getting a gun. To get the permit the owner has to prove safety training for self and the dog.

Jeff Schneider said:

I sincerely hope that the owner of the dogs is found and that justice is done to him.  For some reason, losers seem to get a thrill out of owning vicious dogs, guns, etc., and generally making life more dangerous for the rest of us.  Wish I knew why.  Wish I could stop it.

I don't think there is any kind of defense against this kind of animal (I mean both the dogs and their moronic owner), other than having the good fortune not to be where they are.

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Permalink Reply by Thunder Snow on January 3, 2012 at 11:15am

I believe that breed-specific laws and prohibitions have been attempted, but since "pit bulls" are a collection of breeds rather than a single one, the laws get murky.  And Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Huskies, Malamutes and wolf hybrids, all have disturbing bite records, according to the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta:

"Three categories of strategies can be considered for preventing dog bites:

1. Owner and public education. Dog owners, through proper selection, socialization, training, care, and treatment of a dog, can reduce the likelihood of owning a dog that will eventually bite (7). Male and unspayed/unneutered dogs are more likely to bite than are female and spayed/neutered dogs (7). Educational and prevention efforts should be directed at parents and children. Veterinarians and pediatricians should address strategies for bite prevention, including the need for appropriate supervision of children. Other strategies include dissemination of information on preventing bites (see box), school-based educational programs on bite prevention and canine behavior, and educational programs regarding responsible dog selection, ownership, and training.

2. Animal control at the community level. Animal-control programs should be supported, and laws for regulating dangerous or vicious dogs should be promulgated and enforced vigorously (8). For example, in this report, 30% of DBRFs resulted from groups of owned dogs that were free roaming off the owner's property. Some of these deaths might have been prevented through more stringent animal-control laws and enforcement. Although some breeds were disproportionately represented in the fatal attacks described in this report, the representation of breeds changes over time. As a result, targeting a specific breed may be unproductive; a more effective approach may be to target chronically irresponsible dog owners (9).

3. Bite reporting. Evaluation of prevention efforts requires improved surveillance for dog bites. Dog bites should be reported as required by local or state ordinances, and reports of such incidents should include information about the circumstances of the bite; ownership, breed, sex, age, spay/neuter status, and history of prior aggression of the animal; and the nature of restraint before the bite incident.

Dogs provide many health and social benefits (10). Most of the approximately 55 million dogs in the United States never bite or kill humans. However, the findings in this report indicate that DBRFs continue to occur and that most are preventable."   http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm

Some safety tips (though aimed at youngsters).
 
rik said:

...because those dogs are a big dangerous breeds they require a much higher level of responsibility and therefore we have to hold the owners to a much higher level of accountability. I do  charge the owners with attempted manslaughter.

Those big dangerous dogs should be in a separate category and should not be allowed in public.

Any one who want one should have to get permit just like getting a gun. To get the permit the owner has to prove safety training for self and the dog.

 

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Permalink Reply by Kathleen Murphy on January 3, 2012 at 8:18pm

Yep. Unless you're in New Mexico or Texas, apparently, where I was chased at least daily by dogs on rather busy highways with high-speed traffic. Also had to ride past a number of dead (presumably hit by cars) dogs on the sides of those roads, which really saddened and angered me. Anyway, my touring partner taught me after I'd been first chased that just yelling at the dogs would make them retreat back to their yards and it seemed to work for the most part.

clp said:

Julie Hochstadter said:   I was chased...at the Apple Cider Century....it was damn scary.  

That's the downside of riding along those pleasant rural roads -- most country folk have several dogs which they allow to run free on their property and out onto the quiet roadway.  They're not concerned because passing cars come by infrequently, and drive quite slowly.

That's why I prefer busier roads when bike touring; the pavement is usually better, and dogs along the way are usually tied up or behind fences lest they get run over.  I'd rather deal with a big SUV coming up from behind than a charging hound any day.

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Permalink Reply by El Dorado on January 4, 2012 at 2:01am

Lots of people say that it's not the dogs breed but how you train them. I don't think thats true. Pit bulls seem to like to attack humans. Luckily that guy who came out with a bat had his windows open on a cold January morning to save the day!

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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 4, 2012 at 2:33am

There are no such things as bad dogs -or bad dog breeds There are only bad owners. Dogs are dogs and they are all pretty much the same inside regardless of what they look like on the outside.

The thing about Pit Bulls  is that they tend to attract bad owners.  Toy poodles don't tend to attract the kinds of jerks who gravitate towards the "bad ass" looking dogs.  Many of them are bred, trained, and used in fighting.  That is going to really effect the behavior of any breed of dog -as they are all the same inside.  Any animal abused in this way will act similarly.

If it were possible to ban and eliminate this breed entirely then the folks who mistreat them will move onto another breed like Shepherds, Rotties, or even Standard Poodles.  

It's like thinking that if you ban Honda Civics that people who rice and streetrace them will just stop ricing and street-rodding all cars and there will no longer be anyone speeding.  Nope.  If there were no Honda Civics to rice out they would just move onto another car to focus on. It's not the car that is the problem here (if it is even a problem as I'm sort of stretching the analogy here.)

As far as what I would do if something like this happened to me I've thought long and hard about it.  I used to own a pet-sitting business with an X-wife and I think I have a pretty good grasp at how dogs tick.  It's all psychology.   I've been tasked with an emergency pet-sit to take care of a dog I've never seen before in a house that I've never been in.  Going into and meeting a dog alone in his own territory is not a simple task but knowing how dogs think is a big help.

Confronting a pair of aggressive dogs who have been trained to fight and abused  is not a good situation.  The only weapons we really have are our wits, our superior reach, and a bicycle(shield) with a U-lock(hammer.)  The U-lock is a pretty good bludgeon and can be used against any attacker.  Remember that hitting the top of the head of a fighting dog isn't going to do much good compared to the side of the temple.  As people above have said once they latch on they aren't going to let go.

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Permalink Reply by Joe Schmoe on January 4, 2012 at 12:34pm

Kind of tired of the bad owners line.  Dogs, like humans, are animals, and will sometimes do unprovoked, crazy, violent things.  You can't do a psych analysis on a dog, so you can't always tell how balanced they are.  A family friend had a German Shepherd; a rescue dog, but they had had her for almost 10 years. Never bit anyone, was over-protective of the owners, but that's GS's for you.  They took their son, daughter-in-law, and granddaughter camping down south.  They spent 5 days in the woods, no problems, and on day 5, the 5-year old granddaughter made some kind of move the dog didn't like, and it bit her in the face, 12 stitches.  Was the owner bad?  No.  Was the dog bad?  Ehhh. Not really.  My wifey heard about it and said: "I knew there wasn't something right with that dog."  Now, you can blame the previous owners, who most certainly abused the dog, but then don't we have to blame circumstances for humans too?  Animal/human behavior is nowhere near as predictable as we'd like to believe.  And bad things happen sometimes, regardless of our best intentions. 

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Permalink Reply by Waymond Smith on January 5, 2012 at 4:07am

NO!!!!!

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 5, 2012 at 4:10am

Pit bulls as a breed are not a terrible dog, people make them that way and ignorance like this perpetuates the image.  An image that makes them hard to place thus making them a easy breed for dog fighters and other terrible people to own, abuse and train to be shitty animals. 

Way to be part of the problem.

ANY dog bigger than a bread box can be trained and abused making it extremely dangerous but have you ever noticed that the same breeds people find so dangerous when they are not treated well or owned by morons, German Shepards, Rottweilers, Doberman, Pit Bulls , etc... are also some of the smartest and most loyal breeds out there?  For every attack from some breed on that list you can find at least one loyal pet that is a great animal; but animals being awesome never makes the news so it skews public perception.

Did you know that pit bulls used to be the most popular breed in the US?

Jeff Schneider said:

Yeah, shit happens. Who could possibly have predicted that two un-neutered male pit bulls on the loose in an urban neighborhood would hurt anyone?


Joe Schmoe said:

Kind of tired of the bad owners line.  Dogs, like humans, are animals, and will sometimes do unprovoked, crazy, violent things.  You can't do a psych analysis on a dog, so you can't always tell how balanced they are.  A family friend had a German Shepherd; a rescue dog, but they had had her for almost 10 years. Never bit anyone, was over-protective of the owners, but that's GS's for you.  They took their son, daughter-in-law, and granddaughter camping down south.  They spent 5 days in the woods, no problems, and on day 5, the 5-year old granddaughter made some kind of move the dog didn't like, and it bit her in the face, 12 stitches.  Was the owner bad?  No.  Was the dog bad?  Ehhh. Not really.  My wifey heard about it and said: "I knew there wasn't something right with that dog."  Now, you can blame the previous owners, who most certainly abused the dog, but then don't we have to blame circumstances for humans too?  Animal/human behavior is nowhere near as predictable as we'd like to believe.  And bad things happen sometimes, regardless of our best intentions. 

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