Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gin on December 3, 2011 at 12:08pm

I took her name off and deleted a post I made that had her name in it. But name is also in Thundersnow's comment.

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Permalink Reply by Thunder Snow on December 3, 2011 at 1:46pm

Deleted.

Gin said:

I took her name off and deleted a post I made that had her name in it. But name is also in Thundersnow's comment.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Jarrow on December 4, 2011 at 6:19am

I'm not even sure where to begin to respond to this...

Regarding sidewalks - if you seriously think that pedestrians belong in the middle of the street, that's about as logical as cars belonging on the sidewalk.  There are clearly delineated paths for the different modes of transportation.  Thank goodness the average street in the USA doesn't look like that street in Calcutta!

Also, you need to read my posts - I don't singularly depend on my car to get around, walking, the CTA, are all viable options for me even I don't personally commute using a bicycle.   So your personal attack is baseless.   

As for your paragraph I'm quoting here this is basically what I'm here trying to find out - the willingness of the bicycling community to be "treated exactly like other vehicles: cars, buses, trucks or horse-driven carriages" - if you want to claim the rights to be treated equally you have to man up and live up to the responsibilities that go along with those rights.   This means following the established traffic laws!   They're maybe not perfect, and traffic signals really need to have their timing reevaluated to allow better traffic flow - but the basic point that vehicles on the road (bikes included) are equally subject to the rules of the road is something we apparently agree on.  ;)

As for people nit-picking what the law 'allows' as opposed to some apparent common sense in keeping your kids from playing in traffic on a busy dangerous street, I have one last question.  Was this little girl wearing a bicycle helmet?  The law specifically states kids under 15 are required to have one on.

Thunder Snow said:

Richard:

I'm certain you don't get it; you'll be frantically clutching your car keys on the day you die of old age many decades hence.  But...

I suspect I differ from many folks on this board, as I believe it's in cyclists' best interests in being treated exactly like other vehicles: cars, buses, trucks or horse-driven carriages.  If we allow ourselves special privileges that motorists don't have, we become a special class of vehicle and we can then be culled from the herd: restricted to bike lanes only or, worst case, in being restricted to only ride on scenic forest preserve bikeways and banned from mixing with motorists "for our own safety".  I wish bicycling to remain and increase as a workable mode of transportation, allowed to ride anywhere.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Jarrow on December 4, 2011 at 6:28am

This is NOT a crusade against bicyclists!!!   Why is it when peoples opinions are questioned they assume it's a personal attack?   I'm here asking questions and bringing up the point that I see people on bicycles ignore traffic law a far far greater percentage of the time than motor vehicles.  And that's just wrong, if bikes are to be allowed to ride on the street and given equal space.  

The string of events that has led me to this has been multiple instances of me either being hit by bicycles blowing red lights, seeing bikes almost hit by cars as the bicycle rider is swerving all through traffic and acting unpredictably, or seeing pedestrians hit-n-run by bicyclists.  

Ultimately what pushed me too far is that lack of accountability of bicyclists in general.   Many believe you don't even have to have a drivers license - which is basically proof that you can pass a test proving you know the rules of the road.  (if you can't pass that test, or don't have a license, you have no business riding on the streets where you're expected to know the rules of the road).  Also, no license plates on bikes - red light cameras are useless, clear identification of a bicycle is almost impossible. How does that make you equal with cars on the road?  It doesn't - it makes bicyclists a protected and special class - less accountable to the restrictions the rest of the people on the road have to abide by.   And the number of folks riding around with no lights or reflectors dressed in dark clothes at night (the NINJA BICYCLISTS!) just amazes me.  That's just lack of responsibility in the extreme.

h' said:

OK, that's fair. My weekday commute is only a mile, and weekends about 4.5, but if it were much more than that I might also decide it's too far.  On the other hand, I did make a variety of sacrifices so I could live close enough to work to be able to make a go of it easily.

But enough about me.

Can I ask what it was that motivated you to launch this crusade against cyclists? Was there one "trigger" or was more of a string of events?

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Permalink Reply by Zoetrope on December 4, 2011 at 6:52am

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Permalink Reply by Joel on December 4, 2011 at 1:05pm

If you count speeding, a higher proportion of drivers break established traffic laws than bicyclists.  

Compliance with speed limits is almost non-existent on many roads.  

Stopping at stop signs?  Hardly.  Maybe, just maybe, cars will come to a complete stop if there are others cars at the intersection--don't expect them to take turns correctly though.  If it isn't a busy intersection a huge number drive through at speeds over 5mph.

Then there are cell phones... Oh cell phones...  How many drivers are on the phone while driving?  Either hand held or headset, it doesn't matter--it makes you a danger.  Would you drive drunk?  Would you drive while on a phone?  Numerous studies have shown that driving on the phone is at least as impairing as driving drunk.  

There are plenty of terrible cyclists out there.  They ride dangerously and it is amazing that so few ninjas get killed.  Luckily they are a greater threat to themselves than others.  But please, don't act like bicylists are uniquely bad road users.  Personally, as a pedestrian I find cars to be much, much scarier and I've had orders of magnitude more near accidents with distracted drivers than bad cyclists.  

Richard Jarrow said:

This means following the established traffic laws!

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Permalink Reply by S on December 4, 2011 at 2:23pm

It seems like a crusade if you're going to harp on how bad cyclists are but not acknowledge that drivers are just as bad or worse since they're driving cars and have the potential to do much more damage.  I routinely see car drivers change lanes without signaling even if they're zooming across 4 lanes on a freeway; they roll through stop signs; run reds; and do crazy things like come to a complete stop on the freeway trying to get into an offramp that is backed up or drive around on shoulders.

You've complained that cyclists don't have license plates so they have no accountability when they get caught on red light cameras, but those red light cameras (as well as speeding cameras, speed traps, speed bumps, etc) are there because car drivers routinely violate those laws and necessitate the installation of those things.  

In response to your comment about needing a license to ride a bike on the streets, would you mind pointing me to the law or code that requires that to be the case? 

Richard Jarrow said:

This is NOT a crusade against bicyclists!!!   Why is it when peoples opinions are questioned they assume it's a personal attack?   I'm here asking questions and bringing up the point that I see people on bicycles ignore traffic law a far far greater percentage of the time than motor vehicles.  And that's just wrong, if bikes are to be allowed to ride on the street and given equal space.  

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Permalink Reply by Richard Jarrow on December 5, 2011 at 3:15am

All true.  Cars do stupid things on the road, which if you've read what I've posted I'm not trying to absolve cars of any wrong doing..   But what you're saying is in no way justification for bicyclists to deliberately ignore traffic lights and such.   Speed traps don't really apply to bikes anyway, so you're basically exempt from those laws - but red lights, stop signs, one way streets, right of way, etc.  Yes, you're subject to those just like cars are.

S said:

It seems like a crusade if you're going to harp on how bad cyclists are but not acknowledge that drivers are just as bad or worse since they're driving cars and have the potential to do much more damage.  I routinely see car drivers change lanes without signaling even if they're zooming across 4 lanes on a freeway; they roll through stop signs; run reds; and do crazy things like come to a complete stop on the freeway trying to get into an offramp that is backed up or drive around on shoulders.

You've complained that cyclists don't have license plates so they have no accountability when they get caught on red light cameras, but those red light cameras (as well as speeding cameras, speed traps, speed bumps, etc) are there because car drivers routinely violate those laws and necessitate the installation of those things.  

In response to your comment about needing a license to ride a bike on the streets, would you mind pointing me to the law or code that requires that to be the case? 

Richard Jarrow said:

This is NOT a crusade against bicyclists!!!   Why is it when peoples opinions are questioned they assume it's a personal attack?   I'm here asking questions and bringing up the point that I see people on bicycles ignore traffic law a far far greater percentage of the time than motor vehicles.  And that's just wrong, if bikes are to be allowed to ride on the street and given equal space.  

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Permalink Reply by Joel on December 5, 2011 at 3:19am

I'm saying that drivers break many of those laws just as frequently as cyclists.  I can sit in my living room and watch 80% of the cars go through the stop sign on my street without stopping.  Some make it down to 5mph, some closer to 10mph at best.  Horns tend to get used if someone actually stops completely.  

Are all of these people deliberately ignoring the law?  Or are they just so terribly unaware of their surroundings that they shouldn't be driving in the first place?

Also, why should we ignore the speeding part?  Velocity is the single most predictive factor in how likely a crash is to kill someone.  It determines how much energy the car has.  Speeding most certainly is an issue.  It means less time to react to anything unexpected and if a crash happens, it means someone is more likely to die.

Richard Jarrow said:

All true.  Cars do stupid things on the road, which if you've read what I've posted I'm not trying to absolve cars of any wrong doing..   But what you're saying is in no way justification for bicyclists to deliberately ignore traffic lights and such.   Speed traps don't really apply to bikes anyway, so you're basically exempt from those laws - but red lights, stop signs, one way streets, right of way, etc.  Yes, you're subject to those just like cars are.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Jarrow on December 5, 2011 at 4:03am

I'm sorry but that's where you're very much mistaken.   Now, December 5th in Chicago isn't the best time for this, but on a nicer summer day when ALL the cyclists are out, stand at a busy intersection downtown or even someplace up on Milwaukee or Elston.   Count the number of cars that pass through the intersection and the number of cars that blatantly jump the red light cuz there's enough of a gap in traffic to allow them to rabbit through.  Now do the same for bicycles.  Bicycles will have a far far higher percentage of instances of actually blowing the light, and even less of coming to a complete stop first.

I'd say folks are skirting the law.  But it's still not justification for others to also do so.

As for ignoring speeding laws, I'd say it's bicycles that make out on that one - how many speeding tickets do you think bikes get?  Hardly any I'd suspect.   Drivers of cars at least know they're subject to those laws and don't have much recourse for fighting a speeding ticket.  They just pay the fine, just like any other traffic ticket they get - but with the lack of enforcement of traffic law for bikes, you're just getting away with it more and more - and therein lies part of the problem.

Joel said:

I'm saying that drivers break many of those laws just as frequently as cyclists.  I can sit in my living room and watch 80% of the cars go through the stop sign on my street without stopping.  Some make it down to 5mph, some closer to 10mph at best.  Horns tend to get used if someone actually stops completely.  

Are all of these people deliberately ignoring the law?  Or are they just so terribly unaware of their surroundings that they shouldn't be driving in the first place?

Also, why should we ignore the speeding part?  Velocity is the single most predictive factor in how likely a crash is to kill someone.  It determines how much energy the car has.  Speeding most certainly is an issue.  It means less time to react to anything unexpected and if a crash happens, it means someone is more likely to die.

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Permalink Reply by Melanie K on December 5, 2011 at 4:08am

If there is going to be a debate on this forum, please start another thread to do it in. Healthy debate is good, but I would personally like to see the current discussion started in another thread. This particular thread really isn't the place for it, IMO. 

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