Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on November 20, 2011 at 2:57pm

How would they know it was an issue?

 

I very much doubt the management of the dealership is out there watching traffic.  I think you are working very hard to view this in a negative light when it is, in the big picture, a positive.  While I will concede that, in part, you are right; we should not be praising people for behaving as they should after being called on it think if it like this:

 

• Some people who work for, visit or just cut through the lot at McGrath have been acting like fools when it comes to driving.
• It was pointed out and management who were not aware of the problem, instead of being defensive, decided to look into the problem.
• Upon review they found people working for them to be responsible for part of the problem and took steps to fix it.
• They found people they have no connection to doing it and took steps to help prevent it.

 

So where in there had Mcgrath done anything wrong in the first place other than not have a great location when it comes to access?

 

Darren Knox said:

While it's probably not usual for an auto distributor to make such concessions to the bicycle community maybe we should take a step back and look at this with a little perspective.

The situation: employees of a car dealership at a busy intersection have been reckless and dangerous for a while. Instead of addressing what was probably a pretty obvious problem on their own, this dealership had to be prompted by people who feared for their lives on numerous occasions before doing anything.

So now that leaves us lowly cyclists giving them high fives for doing the sane thing rather than being completely dangerous. If the death or injury of a cyclist was the impetus for this change would we be thanking them so gratuitously? I think not.

The fact is that we live in a city where drivers are dangerous regularly. We don't have to thank them for being safe only after we call them out. We deserve a lot better than that.

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Permalink Reply by Darren Knox on November 20, 2011 at 3:45pm

Its true I don't know if the management had a clue about the reckless driving. It doesn't seem a stretch that if people commuting on that part of the street saw dangerous behavior then the management who works there every day might have seen it too. It also seems that parking giant trucks in the bike lane is part of their normal operations which is something the management is surely aware of.

Regardless, I don't think we should congratulate them for being sane and doing the right thing after being so irresponsible and I don't think that having a bad location is a good excuse for being dangerous.

I think those that were dangerous should be held accountable for their actions. What is happening to the employees that were caught on camera? Are they getting fired? Are they getting tickets? Nope, they just getting a stern talking to and promising never to do it again. If they do it again will they be fired? Are "chicago's finest" giving tickets to trucks parked in the bike lane?

I don't normally post to the chainlink but when I saw the newsletter something just hit me wrong. I think we cyclists take a lot of abuse (middle fingers, horns, getting hit, doors, yelling, passing too close etc.etc.) on a regular basis with little or no recourse. So, when people make concessions for us it seems like we've won a battle. I'm not trying to be anti-car here and I know there are a lot of responsible drivers out there on the road but if we just see reckless driving as a fact of life and feel vindicated when dangerous drivers get a slap on the wrist then something's really wrong. I think that we should hold everyone to a much higher standard than that. Otherwise, what happens when someone DOES get killed or injured? Well, oops! It's just a fact of life.

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Permalink Reply by Meg Matthews on November 20, 2011 at 3:50pm

In this economy, do you really want to fire someone for an infraction like that? I don't. I think the business did everything they could without over- or under-reacting.

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Permalink Reply by Michelle Gregorek on November 20, 2011 at 4:11pm

+1

For Chicago to get where the plan/vision sees, it is just this sort of thing that needs to be applauded.  I talk bicycle commuting all the time anymore, so much that my kids and grandchildren are starting to wonder just what has happened to me, lol. 

There is so much education that needs to be done.  When the bike share program gets to Chicago I believe things will change quickly.  More people on bikes of course brings on the safety in numbers, but it will also get more car drivers on a bike and that will help them to understand just what we face.

I have linked to this thread as much as my limited online social networking can do.  I would love to see this covered on the television and print news. 

 

Meg Matthews said:

In this economy, do you really want to fire someone for an infraction like that? I don't. I think the business did everything they could without over- or under-reacting.

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Permalink Reply by in it to win it 8.0 mi on November 21, 2011 at 6:10am

-1

 

You're applying a lot of generalities to a specific business.  Focus don't continue to divide.

 

 

 

Darren Knox said:

Its true I don't know if the management had a clue about the reckless driving. It doesn't seem a stretch that if people commuting on that part of the street saw dangerous behavior then the management who works there every day might have seen it too. It also seems that parking giant trucks in the bike lane is part of their normal operations which is something the management is surely aware of.

Regardless, I don't think we should congratulate them for being sane and doing the right thing after being so irresponsible and I don't think that having a bad location is a good excuse for being dangerous.

I think those that were dangerous should be held accountable for their actions. What is happening to the employees that were caught on camera? Are they getting fired? Are they getting tickets? Nope, they just getting a stern talking to and promising never to do it again. If they do it again will they be fired? Are "chicago's finest" giving tickets to trucks parked in the bike lane?

I don't normally post to the chainlink but when I saw the newsletter something just hit me wrong. I think we cyclists take a lot of abuse (middle fingers, horns, getting hit, doors, yelling, passing too close etc.etc.) on a regular basis with little or no recourse. So, when people make concessions for us it seems like we've won a battle. I'm not trying to be anti-car here and I know there are a lot of responsible drivers out there on the road but if we just see reckless driving as a fact of life and feel vindicated when dangerous drivers get a slap on the wrist then something's really wrong. I think that we should hold everyone to a much higher standard than that. Otherwise, what happens when someone DOES get killed or injured? Well, oops! It's just a fact of life.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on November 21, 2011 at 8:03am

Considering how many places regularly do the wrong thing I think it is worth congratulating them for doing the right thing now.  Considering I once had a knife pulled on me by a manager of a business for arguing with a valet who almost doored me I consider McGrath's behavior to be worth lauding.

 

You would really want to fire somebody over this? 

 

Darren Knox said:

Its true I don't know if the management had a clue about the reckless driving. It doesn't seem a stretch that if people commuting on that part of the street saw dangerous behavior then the management who works there every day might have seen it too. It also seems that parking giant trucks in the bike lane is part of their normal operations which is something the management is surely aware of.

Regardless, I don't think we should congratulate them for being sane and doing the right thing after being so irresponsible and I don't think that having a bad location is a good excuse for being dangerous.

I think those that were dangerous should be held accountable for their actions. What is happening to the employees that were caught on camera? Are they getting fired? Are they getting tickets? Nope, they just getting a stern talking to and promising never to do it again. If they do it again will they be fired? Are "chicago's finest" giving tickets to trucks parked in the bike lane?

I don't normally post to the chainlink but when I saw the newsletter something just hit me wrong. I think we cyclists take a lot of abuse (middle fingers, horns, getting hit, doors, yelling, passing too close etc.etc.) on a regular basis with little or no recourse. So, when people make concessions for us it seems like we've won a battle. I'm not trying to be anti-car here and I know there are a lot of responsible drivers out there on the road but if we just see reckless driving as a fact of life and feel vindicated when dangerous drivers get a slap on the wrist then something's really wrong. I think that we should hold everyone to a much higher standard than that. Otherwise, what happens when someone DOES get killed or injured? Well, oops! It's just a fact of life.

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Permalink Reply by Darren Knox on November 21, 2011 at 2:50pm

I guess I think of things in a less relativistic way. I also don't think riding in the city is going to get any better until we raise our standards and its incredibly sad to me that this reckless endangerment of people is getting excused left and right by people on a cycling forum.

I also think that, being part and parcel of the industry, a dealership should have a policy regarding employees that drive recklessly. Doesn't that make sense? Maybe it's not an instant fire sort of thing but maybe they should get fired if they ever do it again.

I've lived in a few other cities (Los Angeles, Portland OR) and its my experience that Chicago has some of the angriest and most entitled streets that I've seen. It doesn't have to be this bad folks! You can choose between relativism and standards but why not set the bar high, and hold people accountable for endangering lives just because they want to cut corners?

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Permalink Reply by John L. Douglass on November 21, 2011 at 3:10pm

Wow, lots of comments and truly passionate posts. I/we are taking your comments to heart, believe me. I have had discussions with department heads in both sales and service today. One thing for sure is that we all agree on the severity of this issue. I noticed still that the lane is not clearly marked due to the resurfacing of Elston Ave. Once that is complete, I will revisit the issues with all involved. That I guarantee.

I have also arranged to not allow the later nite loading of transports in the lane. I will personally be there for the next scheduled pick up...probably, tomorrow evening. We also spoke to both of the shuttle drivers again. One of the drivers is new and has been clearly directed regarding the cycle lane.

I do appreciate the kind and heartfelt comments and I also empathize with the irritated posts. I have mentioned to upper management the idea of no left turn onto Elston and honestly feel that will be a challenge. However, the tapes are showing already a reduction in violations, although we still get some traffic cutting through at odd hours. During business hours, the violations are practically eliminated.

In response to the latest post, our handbook clearly states dire consequences to any violations. Of those, wreckless driving is included.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on November 21, 2011 at 3:42pm

Everything is relatavistic; we are happy by the actions of McGrath because of how bad things are and how little many other places do about it. 

 

Tell me this: Are we going to get more businesses to do something about the problem by lauding the ones that try to make things better, regardless of how wrong they were in the first place or by cursing the few that try to do it better for not doing as much as we want? 

Could McGrath have done more?  Yep, usually people never do as much about a problem as you would like them to.  I'm just happy they did something,

Could they have been doing it better from the start? Yep, but they are a car dealership; it's logical they think very little about the impact of their business on bike riders.  I'm just happy they acknowledged the problem and tried to do something to correct it.

Am I happy they did what they did vs. ignoring a population of which a very, very small percentage may give them business?  Yep.  Very happy actually; they are, right now, catering to a demographic that they, in a business sense, have almost no reason to.  In all reality they could have just ignored it or told cyclists as a whole to pack sand.  Seriously, if every cyclist in Chicago decided to stop patronizing McGrath I doubt they would even notice.

 

You think the streets here are entitled and aggressive you should give a try to some other large Midwestern cities; or even go out and try to have yourself a nice ride in some of the suburbs right here around Chicago.

 

You have a choice, you can either choose to be happy they are trying to do something and support businesses willing to try and improve and help cyclists or you can be negative.

Darren Knox said:

I guess I think of things in a less relativistic way. I also don't think riding in the city is going to get any better until we raise our standards and its incredibly sad to me that this reckless endangerment of people is getting excused left and right by people on a cycling forum.

I also think that, being part and parcel of the industry, a dealership should have a policy regarding employees that drive recklessly. Doesn't that make sense? Maybe it's not an instant fire sort of thing but maybe they should get fired if they ever do it again.

I've lived in a few other cities (Los Angeles, Portland OR) and its my experience that Chicago has some of the angriest and most entitled streets that I've seen. It doesn't have to be this bad folks! You can choose between relativism and standards but why not set the bar high, and hold people accountable for endangering lives just because they want to cut corners?

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Permalink Reply by Zoetrope on November 21, 2011 at 4:25pm

I can see the points both sides are making, and although I find it hard to see the negative in what John L. Douglas has done since being alerted to this problem, I can understand how heaping praise on someone for doing something that any person not concerned only with money, profits and social status should have nipped in the bud from the beginning, can be rather irksome.  It kind of paints a bleak picture of the road ahead.    

 

Like Darren said, we are setting a poor standard if we excessively laud someone for doing something so basic and indicative of compassion.  It's kind of a slap in the face of cycling advocates who've done far greater things and received little to no recognition.   

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Permalink Reply by Darren Knox on November 21, 2011 at 4:31pm

Wow, the contrast of heartening/disheartening posts here is really throwing me for a loop.

 

First, I really appreciate your response John. It seems like you really are taking this seriously and going to a lot of extra effort to change things around your dealership. That's awesome but it's not actually special. It's just your everyday responsibility to make your business and its impact on the streets around it safe. It still really upsets me that the situation existed in the first place and there wasn't more oversight or respect (on an individual basis) for those on the road (including motorists).

 

And yeah, wow I really hope that the rest of the cycling community doesn't take such a relativistic approach to how they view cycling as Mr. DUG here. I'm not going to be happy just because Chicago isn't any worse than it already is. I'll be happy when I don't fear for my life on a regular basis and am respected by motorists as they respect people in large vehicles. And contrary to your assertion: I don't have a choice in the matter. Being disrespected and endangered makes me DECIDEDLY UNHAPPY and I can't really do anything about that. Until attitudes change I'll continue to hold people accountable when they mess up. Forgive me if I'm not ecstatic when they do the right thing.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on November 21, 2011 at 6:22pm

Actually a businesses only responsibility is to make money; that's it.  Being a good neighbor, being safe or otherwise acting like decent folk is a choice a business makes and, truth be told, most businesses make the choice to be decent because, in the long run, it get them more customers and make them more money.  I know it hurts to acknowledge this but no person or business has any kind of responsibility to look out for you or anyone else beyond the laws that govern them; anything anybody, individual or business, does beyond that is a personal choice they are making for whatever reason it is that drives them.  The world is an inherently terrible place and we should be thankful for every person who puts in any effort to make it less terrible.  Like I said, this reaction beats having a knife pulled on you after a valet nearly doors you.

 

You are never, ever, not going to be endangered riding a bike on the road.  In case you haven't noticed it's full of people driving great big cars and paying very little attention. 

 

You do have a choice in the matter; you are not an animal you are a person capable of reason and controlling your emotions. 

 

You choose to be unhappy and angry because the world is not as safe as you would like it to be and people don't do as much as you would like them to about it.

I choose to be happy and grateful that the world is safer than it could be and some people so something, even just a little bit, to make it better.

 

And to think people call me a crank.

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