Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Julie P. on December 26, 2008 at 1:42pm

Honestly J, I think many "real" rando-types aren't big on consuming. The guys I talked with had unfailing and trustworthy steeds from years ago, they buy things that are light but practical, and they stick with them. I was far more of a gear nerd than they were.

I think folks buy what they like from where they can get it... I know people go to Peter White because he gets the brands other shops don't get, sort of like the stuff you can get from Rivendell but not elsewhere. Peter's the go-to guy for lighting systems because he gets the SON hubs and we all know it. Bertoud bags are seriously overpriced and I've only seen one guy bother with that.

Keep in mind that you don't need racks to be a good randonneur, and that when you're going the distance weight can be a big pain. SKS's weigh less than honjo's, having a carradice weighs less than having a rack and panniers, etc. Wool knickers would suck after a while. Most of the distance guys don't really carry much at all and shed the accessories so they don't have to deal with weight.

I guess what I'm saying is this: the randonneuring "aesthetic" and what real randonneurs do to get through 1200k are two totally different things, for the most part. The brevets lack the L'Eroica motivation so folks do what's easy, tested, trustworthy, and practical.

That's not to say there isn't a market for the stuff.

Permalink Reply by J on December 26, 2008 at 2:39pm

Hi Julie,

That's helpful. Thanks as always :)

There is surely a market here in Chicago, and I'm just trying to kind of get a better feel for it. Who are these people? What do they want?

I know why the vast majority of shops ignore the niche, and it's not just because it's a tiny number of people...

I probably wasn't clear enough in the original post. While there is some overlap between those who actually do full-stop randonneuring and those who are into the classic aesthetic -- I realize that we're talking about two different markets. I should have contextualized the discussion with qualifiers like "light touring" "pass hunting" "retro all rounders" etc.

Last year, I built about a dozen bikes that would fit purely into the rando category, and worked on many others that share attributes. And of course, these are for the most part bikes that will be used for commuting, not randonneuring. One of the reasons it's intriguing is that every time I talk with one of the online guys like Bill Laine (Wallingford) or Peter White -- they all mention how strong sales are to the Chicagoland area. But I absolutely recognize that Chicago is not Seattle or Toronto or Tokyo. And so I'm perfectly happy with the couple dozen Nitto Campee racks and handful of Berthoud bags and SON wheels I sell each year.

The one thing that I get over and over again is that as convenient as it is to buy online, wouldn't it be nice to be able to compare a Carradice Barley with a Nelson side by side... or feel the drag of a SON vs a Shimano dynohub... the interesting thing is that it's coming now not just from the beards-n-lugs crowd, but young female grad students, racers wanting a cool rain bike, and yes, hipsters-moving-on-from-fixes.

In the last month, I've received a commission for an S&S coupled titanium 650B rando bike with integrated racks... and a half dozen other bikes that at least take one page from the playbook, and so as I go back and order each of the bits one at a time, I wonder: maybe there is a market here that I'm not fully seeing?

It's intriguing because it's close to my heart... both the tradition/aesthetics *and* the actual practice of ultradistance riding. It could also be a situation where Hyde Park skews way crazy -- which is why I'm posing the question to this list, which seems to be somewhat more suburban/northerly.

Permalink Reply by terryg on December 27, 2008 at 6:25am

My $0.02... as a relative neophyte to this aspect of riding I'd be excited to see more local retail support for this. Not only to have a place to compare, contrast and buy the tools of the trade, but to simply learn.

I'm happy you're putting thought into this, J. You've got my support, such as it may be.

Permalink Reply by burden on January 7, 2009 at 7:33pm

I can't really comment on whether or not this would be a good business decision, but I'd certainly appreciate a concentrated local source for this stuff.

J, who builds your frames?

Permalink Reply by burden on January 7, 2009 at 7:35pm

Julie Popper said:

Honestly Keep in mind that you don't need racks to be a good randonneur, and that when you're going the distance weight can be a big pain. SKS's weigh less than honjo's, having a carradice weighs less than having a rack and panniers, etc. Wool knickers would suck after a while. Most of the distance guys don't really carry much at all and shed the accessories so they don't have to deal with weight.

I guess what I'm saying is this: the randonneuring "aesthetic" and what real randonneurs do to get through 1200k are two totally different things, for the most part. The brevets lack the L'Eroica motivation so folks do what's easy, tested, trustworthy, and practical.

That's not to say there isn't a market for the stuff.

For me anyway, metal fenders, German dynamo hubs and lights, boxy front bags on small racks, and fat rubber are all "easy, tested, trustworthy, and practical" for long-distance riding. These things, at least, make my long-distance riding more fun, even if they're also components of a certain obvious aesthetic or eschewed by the "serious" randonneur.

By the way, SKS fenders seem like they ought to weigh less, but I don't think they actually do. It's only a matter of a couple of dozen grams, but both Honjo and Velo Orange aluminum fenders appear to be slightly lighter (stays included?).

Permalink Reply by J on January 7, 2009 at 7:49pm

I'll weigh some fenders this weekend to be certain, but I'd agree that the narrow honjos using the 4mm (lighter) alloy hardware might be lighter than SKS.

I have a little shop, so the best I can hope for is to do one or two things really well. Because I sponsor a racing team (albeit one that rides in wool and knickers) -- this means the first priority will always be custom go fast bikes and accessories, albeit on the practical and affordable end of this spectrum. But there is enough demand here in Hyde Park to always have a handful of rando and touring projects going that it's tempting to stock a bit more of the related accessories.

We'll see how things go this year. One interesting thing I've found is a spike in interest in very specific products like mini front racks, Rivendell tires, and dynohubs. I wonder if other shops are seeing such a trend. Also, I think I sold 60/40 metal to plastic fenders in 2008, which was very surprising. (Most of the touring/rando customers who ordered custom bikes went with metal fenders powder coated to match.)

Honestly, I doubt mine (or maybe any Chicagoland shop) will do well as a destination type shop with a touring/rando focus. But it's nice to have some random European grad student roll in with her German trekking bike and ask for a replacement bulb or wire dynamo roller for the snow... and then pull the parts out of a drawer for the repair instead of ordering them and waiting for a week.

Permalink Reply by J on January 7, 2009 at 8:00pm

burden said:

I can't really comment on whether or not this would be a good business decision, but I'd certainly appreciate a concentrated local source for this stuff.

J, who builds your frames?

Right now there are six sources: Toyo, Mercian, Bilenky, Maxway, SST, and me. In 2009, due to exchange rates, one or two might be dropped. I will be adding a second titanium builder because the current factory, while quite good, does not work with 6-4 and if you want to do a frame under, say, 1200g, you must at least have lighter dropouts, if not tubing.

Permalink Reply by burden on January 7, 2009 at 8:02pm

J said:

There are six sources: Toyo, Mercian, Bilenky, Maxway, SST, and me.

I am especially curious about the "and me" option there.

I'll ride down to Hyde Park and talk about it with you sometime, maybe. There's this bike in my head...

Permalink Reply by J on January 7, 2009 at 8:05pm

Sure. I also have many framebuilding friends to whom I can refer you. For French style, I still think the best work is being done in Japan. As I alluded to above, unfortunately due to the weak dollar this makes some builders a little expensive right now. But the British builders have all of a sudden become a great value again. There is some terrific stuff coming out of the UK from both new and old studios. There are some very innovative young builders in Scotland and London, for example.