Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ross Martinek on June 10, 2011 at 9:59am

You made some valid points, however, you completely misunderstand my reasoning, and my own satire—too subtle, perhaps. Have you never heard that "any sufficient incompetence is indistinguishable from malice"? Think about it.

You started well enough:

"So lets take a real analytical look at this whole thing, drop the emotion and personal experience out of it and just look at the basics:"

But then you go on to say:

"…it is also paints a very negative picture of not only you as a person…"

and

"So whenever somebody does not understand your point of view they should just be clubbed?  I'll have to keep that in mind and watch my back because I don't understand how you can compare any of this to the holocaust which means I deserve a brick to the face based on your reasoning.

Of course you also deserve one for not seeing my point so maybe it just cancels out..."

It seems you are not confident enough of your reasoning to "drop the emotion" so you resort to personal attacks.

As for a comparison with the monsters of history being inappropriate, you do not understand history. "It is sufficient for evil that good men (and women) do nothing." Those monsters gain a toehold whenever someone says or thinks: "Oh, it's no big deal, they didn't really mean it." How would anyone know what they really meant short of mind reading?

Finally, since you apparently cannot "drop the emotion," take your own advice to "move the fuck on and spend life heading in a positive direction."

__________________________

Brian, just read your post. See above. Give your fellow man less credit—you'll live longer and be happier. Common sense isn't.

Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on June 10, 2011 at 12:11pm

I have heard it and I do not buy it; sadly many people are too stupid to know better in a lot of cases.  Ignorance is not malice, ignorance is a lack or experience and education compounded by a shitty societal model.

 

I did not make a personal attack, a personal attack would be if I were to call you a fool or an idiot. All I did was call you out on poor application of standards: It is OK for you to threaten violence but not for others to do it; even in the form of satire.  Believe me on this; if anyone here has the courage of their convictions it is me, I will not say or type anything I do not believe 100% and would not say in person.  There are many people here who would vouch to that.

 

I am not moving the fuck on about your comments because you, as a cyclist, represent a group I am a part of and I believe your words and action are making the group I belong to look bad.  If you want to play arm chair psychoanalyst I would say that you had a bad experience and are not unable to view the world in an objective manner... but that's just me.

 

Ross Martinek said:

You made some valid points, however, you completely misunderstand my reasoning, and my own satire—too subtle, perhaps. Have you never heard that "any sufficient incompetence is indistinguishable from malice"? Think about it.

You started well enough:

"So lets take a real analytical look at this whole thing, drop the emotion and personal experience out of it and just look at the basics:"

But then you go on to say:

"…it is also paints a very negative picture of not only you as a person…"

and

"So whenever somebody does not understand your point of view they should just be clubbed?  I'll have to keep that in mind and watch my back because I don't understand how you can compare any of this to the holocaust which means I deserve a brick to the face based on your reasoning.

Of course you also deserve one for not seeing my point so maybe it just cancels out..."

It seems you are not confident enough of your reasoning to "drop the emotion" so you resort to personal attacks.

As for a comparison with the monsters of history being inappropriate, you do not understand history. "It is sufficient for evil that good men (and women) do nothing." Those monsters gain a toehold whenever someone says or thinks: "Oh, it's no big deal, they didn't really mean it." How would anyone know what they really meant short of mind reading?

Finally, since you apparently cannot "drop the emotion," take your own advice to "move the fuck on and spend life heading in a positive direction."

__________________________

Brian, just read your post. See above. Give your fellow man less credit—you'll live longer and be happier. Common sense isn't.

Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it.

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Permalink Reply by Vilda on June 10, 2011 at 12:14pm

ok-so this is the 99th post to the thread. i have the list of sponsors in my bag and will post tonight for sure and i have a lot of reading and e-mailing for this and naked ride. riding home now. glad it has started a debate. argueing with each other is something we're all awesome at. but let's try focusing this on have waddle and silvy retract the statements (since the apology the following day was just as bad) and turn them into a mouth piece for good. more in a bit i'm gonna go ride in a mist fog thing.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on June 10, 2011 at 12:20pm

I would have much more appreciation for your criticism if you choose to tell it to me one of the many times I see you in person.  I would be interested in how you see me as a bully; because I stick to my guns and believe in what I say?  When have I called the concerns of cyclists trivial and stupid?  Please show me this because I don't feel that way; I just think that in many cases cyclists forget to look at the bigger picture and recognize that we are a minority in society and fighting an uphill battle.  We often forget how others work and just take the moral high ground and come off as entitled jerks looking down on the rest of society who do not bike; not a good way to make a point.  I wish to promote cycling in a positive manner that does not judge those who do not choose my world view; is that so wrong?

 

Howard, I know you, respect you and consider you a friend, you have my contact info and see me from time to time; if you think my views are so wrong headed I would really like it if you took the time to actually talk to me about it vs. snipe at me on the internet.

 

I do not like the FCC comments because they represent an attitude of crying to the government whenever you hear something you dislike; it is freedom of speech, not freedom from speech.  I hate what they said and how they acted but that does not mean they are not entitled to say it.  The day a person can not get up and say the exact opposite of what I believe without intervention from 'the powers that be' is they day I weep for our country.  If people want to change what these guys are saying they need to put pressure on these guys directly via public opinion and action not by crying to big brother because they dislike what they hear.  This is not me trivializing cyclists rights, it is me being upset that people think they have a right to censor what others say.

 

 

H3N3 said:

notoriousDUG said:

Yes Howard, as you well know I am completely against cycling and all for sports radio.  I would usually not be offended by a comment like that but being as you actually know me it's actually kind of nasty...

 

If you want to pull that card should we take away Ross's internet privileges because he said we should hit these guys with ball bats? 

 

What they said was wrong and in poor taste but, thanks to the way our culture works, saying things in poor taste to get a reaction is sort of their job.  I disagree with it and think it was wrong but what are you going to do?  People are going to hate on shit, look at how much you and a lot of people here hate on cars. 

 

It was a bad comment, complaints and apologies should follow but please tell me what FCC law it violates.

 

 

H3N3 said:

I would say this depends on how strongly you feel about the cause of bicycling (and maybe in general where your allegiances lie.)

notoriousDUG said:

 

They said something stupid but I hardly think that is against the law, the FCC really has no reason to be involved.

 

I see complaining to them and expecting a REAL apology to be reasonable but looking to take peoples jobs or cause them harm is a bit over the top.

 

To this post-- it seems like you're always right there to call the concerns of cyclists stupid and trivial when they come up here. It's =really= tiring and, as you're a tireless and fairly effective bully when you don't get the last word, it gets depressing too.

 

To this:

 

3. So now that the dumb shit has been said, and the apology far from acceptable, what is the best direction, for cyclists, for this shit show to head?  In my opinion the best way for it to go is to assail them, they network, and their sponsors with complaints that they have no choice but to make a REAL apology and perhaps use some of their air time to educate all of the people who view bikes as toys and don't understand that dooring really fucks people up.  Crying to the FCC and looking to have their jobs over comments made not in malice, but in ignorance, is not going to do anything for cyclists but reinforce the image that we are whiners.  We need to stop looking at this as an affront to all we stand for worthy of going to war and start looking at it as an ignorant comment that can be turned into an opportunity to educate.

 

Yes, that makes sense, and that's what Gabe and others here are advocating.  I don't understand why you're having a complete meltdopwn over a few errant and ill-informed comments about the FCC.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Mike Zumwalt on June 10, 2011 at 12:43pm

I'll have to agree with Dug on this,losing you're job over something you said IS a little over the top and a "forced" apology may mean nothing but if they aren't able to see the error in thinking then they need someone to tell them to apologize.

 

How about they are "forced" to ride bikes to work for a month see how they handle that?

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Nancy L. Fagin on June 10, 2011 at 1:03pm

I filed a complaint with the FCC.  Much better than a baseball bat.

 

Nancy L. Fagin

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Permalink Reply by Vilda on June 10, 2011 at 2:35pm

List of sponsors posted! at the top as well as a link to the podcast.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Zumwalt on June 10, 2011 at 3:25pm

Got that and how about a list of sponsors/advertisers to channel 7 where Mark-look at how tan I am my teeth are really white -Giangreco is a sportcaster.

Gabe said:

List of sponsors posted! at the top as well as a link to the podcast.

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Permalink Reply by Vilda on June 13, 2011 at 4:30am

OK, who has written a letter? ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Julie Peterson on June 13, 2011 at 5:22am

I think it would be most effective to start a campaign with a petition to ask the sponsors to withdraw advertising dollars from them and add them to pro-bicycling organizations. 

 

I've been doored. Right afterwards, for a few seconds, laying there on my back in the traffic lane of North Ave, I thought my life was about to end, but oddly, no car ran over me. I broke my helmet and had a concussion.

 

This kind of ignorant homicidal humor incites mindless violence.

 

They need to lose their sponsors and be fired.

 

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Permalink Reply by Vilda on June 13, 2011 at 5:50am

Julie, that's a good idea. What i'm focusing on is educating them. and writing the sponsors so they feel the effects of public pressure is great. But if they are fired we'll have another meat head in his place. How about we actually teach Tom Waddle and Mark Giangreco that it's not funny and here's why?

 

We need to stay positive with the campaign. ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Matt Munley on June 13, 2011 at 5:55am

Maybe this is a left-field idea, but with a new mayor that's making so much noise about bike lanes, the importance of bikes and all that, why not try to bring this to the mayor's office? Waddle and Giangreco are both Chicago personalities, after all.

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