Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sean Gaskin on January 27, 2011 at 3:01pm

I'd have to say you are overthinking this to death.   If someone is going to go through the trouble of claiming a helmet that has been stunk up and sweated in by someone else let them have it and a case of lice.  Unless you have someones house keys, walet, cell phone or something of similar value weather valued monitarily, privacy wise or something of the like let the item go to the person that claimed it and karma will take care of the rest.

 

I can tell you have the best intentions but I'd be damned pissed if I lost something and had to jump through 50 hoops created by the random person trying to help reunite me with my lost or misplaced stuff.  I might be inclined to punch someone in the face instead of bringing a friend, a picture, a receipt and blood sample to claim a helmet, glove or shoe covers.  The important stuff like keys, wallets, phones, or other valuable personal items should be very easy to match with the right person with a question or two instead of tribunal on the street corner. 

 

 

Permalink Reply by travesty on January 27, 2011 at 4:13pm

Perhaps you are "underthinking" since I just posted this and already, a matter of a short time later, you have formed a sort of critique of my thinking itself :) and then you posted it in public :). I'm going to just ignore your message for the most part, sorry. This subject of where you would punch somebody even, is against the rules of the chainlink and is completely unwelcome in this thread I just started. I can't verify your good intentions here, and I'd be glad to see you delete your whole message since its kind of problematic.

As to the straw man of "50 hoops" I don't see your reference. I am reaching for some kind of assurance I never claimed it would be easy :)

As to karma - I don't believe much

I am that random person, if you cannot see the logic I present, I cannot necessarily explain it to you. See above.

I am not afraid of getting punched in the face, which brings me to wonder who are you Sean Gaskin? Why would you admit to using violence to solve such a situation? Why would you archive it on the chainlink? Are you a real person whose name is Sean Gaskin?

Sean Gaskin said:

I'd have to say you are overthinking this to death.   If someone is going to go through the trouble of claiming a helmet that has been stunk up and sweated in by someone else let them have it and a case of lice.  Unless you have someones house keys, walet, cell phone or something of similar value weather valued monitarily, privacy wise or something of the like let the item go to the person that claimed it and karma will take care of the rest.

 

I can tell you have the best intentions but I'd be damned pissed if I lost something and had to jump through 50 hoops created by the random person trying to help reunite me with my lost or misplaced stuff.  I might be inclined to punch someone in the face instead of bringing a friend, a picture, a receipt and blood sample to claim a helmet, glove or shoe covers.  The important stuff like keys, wallets, phones, or other valuable personal items should be very easy to match with the right person with a question or two instead of tribunal on the street corner. 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Sean Gaskin on January 27, 2011 at 4:39pm

I'm going to have to stick with my original statement that you're over thinking this to death.

 

Since my sarcasm has failed to be recognized let me break it down for you. I am not going to punch you or anyone else in the face nor have I. So there goes any admission of my alleged assault.My statement was simply a way to express that I'd be frustrated as hell if I ever needed to try to claim a lost item from you.  Your interpretation of this so literally just reinforces my opinion that you're over thinking this to the point of possibly not even being helpful to the person you're trying to help.  

 

I'm afraid you can't see the forest for the trees.  Try to do good and be happy with that. With the approach you're taking I'd put odds on collecting something from the lost and found at the Kremlin as being a more enjoyable experience than asking you to return a pair of dropped gloves.

 

 

Permalink Reply by travesty on January 27, 2011 at 10:11pm

Yes, if it was sarcastic, this punching of faces statement, yes I completely failed to interpret it as such. Thanks for the clarification on that. I can say in the future you might avoid such, and at least with me, I find it would get in the way of this thread I am undertaking, I think you can see this. What you typed up there is still a crime, its called assault in my understanding and I invite you to look into the law on this with someone who knows more than I. 

Sean Gaskin said:

I'm going to have to stick with my original statement that you're over thinking this to death.

 

Since my sarcasm has failed to be recognized let me break it down for you. I am not going to punch you or anyone else in the face nor have I. So there goes any admission of my alleged assault.My statement was simply a way to express that I'd be frustrated as hell if I ever needed to try to claim a lost item from you.  Your interpretation of this so literally just reinforces my opinion that you're over thinking this to the point of possibly not even being helpful to the person you're trying to help.  

 

I'm afraid you can't see the forest for the trees.  Try to do good and be happy with that. With the approach you're taking I'd put odds on collecting something from the lost and found at the Kremlin as being a more enjoyable experience than asking you to return a pair of dropped gloves.

 

 

Permalink Reply by travesty on January 27, 2011 at 10:15pm

Sean Gaskin said:

I'm going to have to stick with my original statement that you're over thinking this to death.

I'm getting your point that asking someone who is the OWNER, to jump through too many hoops, might lead to "frustrated as hell" types of emotions from said OWNER. I understand and can thank you for such an insight :) No sarcasm here.

But this assertion, of your opinion it seems, that I am both overthinking and perhaps thinking an idea to death, is a little less clear. For one its a mixed metaphor :) but anyway I think I'll respond to both.

Overthinking: Don't tell me how to think, or how much to think, I'll not really open to your opinion on that, sorry. I did not invite critique of my thinking, I tried to give something you COULD critique and that is the post I made. Thanks for what you contributed on that.

That I am thinking this subject to death, is also sort of troublesome. When does an idea die? What relation does thinking about an idea cause it to die? Why would you go to the trouble to point this out in this thread where I am trying to get a little LIFE? A little interaction?

Permalink Reply by travesty on January 27, 2011 at 11:16pm

Sean Gaskin said:

My statement was simply a way to express that I'd be frustrated as hell if I ever needed to try to claim a lost item from you.  Your interpretation of this so literally just reinforces my opinion that you're over thinking this to the point of possibly not even being helpful to the person you're trying to help.  

And I can say your statement was flawed since it brought up violence which is quite separate from frustration. If you get violent when you are frustrated with somebody that is another subject. I don't think you are doing very well here Sean.
Soooo, I don't know if Sean noticed, but I put up some guidelines, some items of protocol, but nowhere did I diagram the exact steps I would take to return an item. It would vary by item.
So why he has this feeling that he would be so frustrated getting an item from me, I wonder. I guess he feels that because I have gone to the trouble to map out some of this protocol space, I won't be able to just get it done with two questions on a phone call. I think that is an assumption on his part, I don't intend to let the process get overcomplicated, and when the process gets overcomplicated, I feel I will know how to react.
Sean Gaskin said:

I'm afraid you can't see the forest for the trees.  Try to do good and be happy with that. With the approach you're taking I'd put odds on collecting something from the lost and found at the Kremlin as being a more enjoyable experience than asking you to return a pair of dropped gloves.

But let me paint a picture. If somebody used the words that Sean used, in sarcasm or not, if I have to hear about a "blood sample" a completely made up straw man case that I never indicated, then I would be telling you over the phone or email that I will not be attempting to return your item to you. I will be turning them over to the police. If you are acting all high and mighty and wise, telling me about karma and try and do good and be happy with that, fine, but you will not be seeing me do anything but turning over the item to the police. I reserve the right to not even tell you which station I drop it off at. I reserve the right to block all communications from you of any kind. Compare this situation to the Kremlin lost and found department to your hearts content, I won't be caring much about it.
I owe the person who lost their stuff exactly NOTHING. I don't guarantee an "enjoyable" experience, I don't see why Sean would have assumed that was one of my goals. I also don't go asking for a reward, which was not covered in my list of protocol.

As I get involved in such returning of items I have found some interesting pitfalls:

As soon as I pick up the phone and call someone trying to return an item, I am taking a risk. I don't expect many people will ever bother returning items, and so they need not post in this thread. I am different from that person though, I am willing and able. I returned a wallet recently and realized that somebody may have already used the credit cards, removed the cash, and otherwise caused all sorts of problems, and I now find it on the street and return it and I may be mistaken for the jerk who actually caused the problems.

These issues, and others that I have not mentioned, are what lead me to seek help in the "protocol" department. Yes I already said I think I have thought of them all, but no I don't assume that is in fact the truth since the chainlink has some members who might have some insight. Power in numbers is one way to approach the problem.

There is a community who care about stolen bikes, and I've already heard someone saying that people who go to the swap-a-rama to buy bikes are "scum" and I am here to say I can go buy that bike and actually find its owner, but the protocol of such an exchange is unclear and difficult. And I would have to deal with people thinking I'm just some scum. Also, if these people have witnessed or assisted in people reclaiming a stolen item, I think they may be able to contribute to such a "protocol" discussion.

The end result of not being able to manage the difficulties, is that I leave the bike for sale right where I see it. I leave the wallet in the slush of the gutter, the cell phone gets picked up by somebody, but that somebody is not me. Also, if the process gets outside my reality I can just turn it in to the cops and let them deal with it. If its a briefcase full of money and coke, I can sort of just NOT engage in the process of finding its Gangster, dangerous, owners, and just hand it off to the cops. Its real easy like that. If I can think of a protocol I think might work, then I risk it, and play it as I see it. You may be able to expand such a protocol, but I don't think you can get me to stop thinking about it, and that is addressed to everyone, don't try and limit my scope here, I don't care if you have no interest in returning lost items, post elsewhere.

I hope to make the process easier by this discussion of protocol. Other people, who just have good intentions, might even benefit from having a place where they can access some "thought" on how such things might best go down. I am now doing the work on that. I will continue to think about it, the idea is not dead, thanks for the feedback there, but I find it at some point even condescending that I need to justify the amount of thought I might or might not put toward an idea.

Returning lost items can be tricky, this thread is where we discuss easy and effective protocol to return the item, to gain assurance that the owner is in fact the one you are returning it to, and generally not a place where karma needs to be addressed, I am aware of karma and I don't believe it really. That does not mean my actions do not end up the same as somebody who does believe in karma.

Permalink Reply by BalloonBiker on January 28, 2011 at 2:16am

Wow...it's great that you want to return lost items, but it really shouldn't be so complex.  If an item doesn't have a lot of resale value, there really shouldn't be any verification.  It would be a rare person who would claim a glove or helmet that didn't belong to them. 

 

If an item is valuable or it's something that anyone would want, then go ahead and ask for a description.  It shouldn't be that hard.

 

As for purchasing a  stolen bike with the idea of reunited it with the owner....it's completely unnecessary.  If you are able to prove that a bike has been stolen, you don't need to buy it.  You can call the police and they will confiscate it and arrest whoever is selling it for being in possession of stolen property.  If you purchase that bike and reward the seller, then you are showing that stealing bikes and reselling them is profitable, which sets the stage for more stolen bikes.  Please do not contribute to demand for stolen bikes.

 

 

Permalink Reply by David on January 28, 2011 at 2:31am

There's something almost magical about the chainlink's ability to generate a heated argument out of even the most innocuous posting. 

On your question, my two cents is that for anything smaller than a bike itself, if somebody says it's theirs, just accept their word for it.  It's reasonable to ask basic identifying questions (what sticker was on the helmet?), but asking for receipts, photos or taking their picture to identify them later is a bit over the top.  That's especially true if you announce the find in a limited setting such as the Sadie after-party or even the Chainlink (which is big, but is nothing compared to,say, CraigsList).

For a bike, I might ask for a bit more, and that increases as the cost of the bike increases.  Somebody might not have any way to prove that the 20-year-old Schwinn is theirs, so let it go, but I assume somebody with an expensive carbon road bike has something that can prove ownership. 

 

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 28, 2011 at 5:33am

Tribunal on the street corner -pure gold!  That line made my whole day. 

 

I'm imagining a bunch of guys with long beards Taliban-style and the threat of stoning U-locking to death anyone who made false claims/bore false witness to their fellow cyclist. 

 

Implement sharia veloistic law amongst the faithful NOW!

 

 

Sean Gaskin said:

 The important stuff like keys, wallets, phones, or other valuable personal items should be very easy to match with the right person with a question or two instead of tribunal on the street corner.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Davo on January 28, 2011 at 5:59am

This is where I imagine the first couple of posts took place.

Thanks for the entertainment.

Permalink Reply by travesty on January 28, 2011 at 6:59am

jamimaria said:

Wow...it's great that you want to return lost items, but it really shouldn't be so complex.  If an item doesn't have a lot of resale value, there really shouldn't be any verification.  It would be a rare person who would claim a glove or helmet that didn't belong to them. 

And yet on the first helmet I ever found, I encountered a person who felt my protocol was incorrect. The helmet was removed from my possession and I was treated like some kind of jerk who was going to keep the helmet for themselves rather than make a good faith effort to find the owner. I'd rather not drag this unsightly event into the public eye, but there was mention that I should never have brought it to the Sadie after party, I should have left it at a business closest to the scene where I found it and put it in their lost and found for two weeks. I was TOLD despite my protest, that I could pick the helmet up at Penny's noodles in two weeks, and it was never there, I hesitate to even contact this person since they were so confident in how "uncomplicated" it all should be they ended up overstepping any normal sort of protocol and being a complete and utter jerk! For instance, what protocol would Penny's use to identify the owner? I want a clear and standardized protocol for returning a helmet, now I do, I won't settle for what you or anybody thinks is just an uncomplicated and straightforward process since it ain't always like that. It can be, but I want a protocol that goes farther and is more standardized.
Thanks for the comment Janmaria!

Permalink Reply by travesty on January 28, 2011 at 7:17am

jamimaria said:

If an item is valuable or it's something that anyone would want, then go ahead and ask for a description.  It shouldn't be that hard.

 

As for purchasing a  stolen bike with the idea of reunited it with the owner....it's completely unnecessary.  If you are able to prove that a bike has been stolen, you don't need to buy it.  You can call the police and they will confiscate it and arrest whoever is selling it for being in possession of stolen property.  If you purchase that bike and reward the seller, then you are showing that stealing bikes and reselling them is profitable, which sets the stage for more stolen bikes.  Please do not contribute to demand for stolen bikes.

Perhaps its unnecessary, but then I think you have overlooked a subtle point. I am not really of the understanding that I would be adding to demand for stolen bikes if I buy one, nor do I feel that I would be rewarding the seller in many cases. I'm not really interested in the fancy carbon or other high ticket items. The people that own those have their own motivations and actually may be able to prove the bike is stolen.
I'm looking at some old schwinn. And I'm wondering what is its provenance. You say yourself that they (the owner) may have no way to prove its their schwinn, or that it was stolen from them. But to get to that realization I'm willing to take the risk in some cases. I CAN'T prove its stolen, otherwise I would just hand the issue over to the cops.
What I can do is buy the bike at a low price because it comes with no provenance. I can then do a search with the police to see if the bike was reported or registered with them. I can then make a listing at a site like the stolen bike database saying "found". I can then post to craigslist, and perhaps even here, and not just once, but over the process of two weeks I can keep that listing current and updated and give somebody who might not even be looking for their stolen bike a chance to actually dig out a photo of it, or identify some key little scratch in the paint, and make my mind up accordingly. I can hear from a victim years later, and we can get their bike back to them in many cases.
I can also get the info of the dude who sold it to me in many cases, and if the bike turns out to be stolen I can even get that info back to him so he knows what exactly is the process I've started by buying a bike from him or her. People with more money or other buying habits can see this process, this protocol, and can use some insight I have worked on. I might help keep the process clear and less prone to risk, and then they can either act according to it or find their own way and deal with the moral issue as appropriate.

I think its worth mentioning that many who have been in the bike community might find this issue simple and straightforward. Thanks for that, it often is. But as I think I have demonstrated, there are issues which lead to this thread and to tell me I'm overcomplicating things is to basically tell me "I don't understand why you are going to this amount of trouble" and that is fine. I think Sean already touched on the fact that setting up arbitrary hoops for recovery is going to lead to frustration, keeping the process as simple AS POSSIBLE is always going to be the ideal.

As far as somebody claiming something that is not theirs, I have faith that people will NO DOUBT game such a system, I'm just not sure how often or how diligently they will go at it.

Edit: spelling and run-ons

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