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I found this interesting and thought I would pass it on. I never considered the fact that what and how I eat had this much of an impact on anything more than my own health and well being. Chalk one up for the Veggiemonster :)

http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/energy.html



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He can have the sandwich, I'll keep the 101.

Jason Smajda said:
Gabe I know how much you love bacon, so I made you a sandwich. Hope you enjoy.
Agreed, but of course that acknowledgment doesn't preclude one from making individual change first. Before there can be a larger social movement there have to be people who have made individual change to lead and support that movement. I think change has to happen at the macro and micro concurrently. As I'm sure you agree.

Thanks for the reference, I'll have to check that book out.

tzizzle said:
You can't just focus on changing individual minds. You have to change the system: the built environment, institutions of various sorts, economic power relations, etc.

People didn't come out of the womb addicted to SUV's and single-family homes. They were trained after years of conditioning.

Deciding whether or not to eat meat has some political value. But it's not going to change the world. To do that, to make all food production sustainable and make the entire US bikable, we're going to need to talk about social movements.

Essential reading for anyone convinced that we have to make radical changes to avert eco-catastrophes in the near future: http://www.ecologyandsocialism.org/
Of course Duppie, and I've tried to make a distinction in my language when talking about meat consumption, but to be clear, let me state for the record that what I'm primarily really down on is industrial agriculture, especially CAFO farmed meat and in conjunction with that a willful refusal on some peoples part to recognize the impact their diet has on the world at large.

Certainly sustainably sourced meat is a preferable alternative and I sincerely applaud your commitment to sourcing your food sustainably. As a CSA subscriber myself, I'm chagrined that I myself still have not made it out to our farm. (By the way thanks for the reminder about the chicken coop tour.)

I also understand the foodie defense of meat, I love to cook too. I recognize that culture is often best expressed in food and it's many glorious variations. Cutting out meat means divorcing yourself from a lot of that food culture. It is a sacrifice no doubt.

But while I think that sustainably raised meat is preferable, and while I can see what fuels the desire for meat beyond just the taste, I don't think it's realistic to expect that we'll ever meet the current demand for meat in our society sustainably.

(Minh's earlier comment about sustainable dietary choices being available only to the [relatively] wealthy is probably more applicable when we talk about sustainable meat than vegetarianism.)

I suppose we could mitigate demand by raising price, but of course that makes it even more desirable culturally. Eating meat is event further reinforced as a higher status activity and made more desirable. Oh man, I’m going cross eyed here, I gotta wrap it up.

Ultimately my main reservation about an open ended endorsement of meat consumption as long as it is free range etc. is that with scale you always wind up on a slippery slope.

But anyway you said “I've concluded that eating grass-fed beef and free range pigs are acceptable for me.” Which means you’ve made a calculation, acknowledged I assume that there are certain costs beyond the financial to this decision, and have decided you can live with them. I respect that commitment to a conscious self-assessment about your diet. I don’t necessarily share the same conclusion, but that’s a personal difference.

I think what I’m beating around the bush about here is that in the final analysis I just think it’s morally questionable (at best) to take a life when it’s unnecessary and I think that applies to animal life as well. I don’t see animal life as inherently less valuable than human life. I’ve been present for and participated in the slaughter of animals, and at it’s core there is something that feels very morally questionable about that act.

We find out more and more every day about animals and their capacity to experience a complex array of emotions. We can no longer view them as the bugs or machines that James described earlier. Not with any honesty given the research. Doing so is just a means of divorcing ourselves intellectually and ethically from what it means to kill and eat them. It’s what slaughterhouse workers are told to think of the animals to assuage the guilt they feel about what they know deep down is wrong.

And here’s the kicker, given all that, I still eat meat on occasion. I eat it because sometimes I crave it, because it’s convenient, because it’s in front of me, or because I’ve been socialized to desire it. It’s hard to successfully and consistently swim against that tide. And I have a lot of respect for the people who do. But even though I don’t, and occasionally partake in meat, I still think at the end of the day, at this stage in our development as a species, here and now, that there’s something sorta wrong with it.


Duppie said:
Jason,
thanks for your thoughtful response

(just ignore the trolls by the way, and they will leave all by themselves)

In large part I do agree with you. I've done my own reading and agree that industrial farming, CAFO's, etc. are unsustainable in the long term.
But I've concluded that eating grass-fed beef and free range pigs are acceptable for me. And yes, I've visited both the farms from which I purchase the beef and pork and I've seen that the animals appear to be happy.
You might call me a foodie, since I am highly interested in food. I love visiting (ethnic) grocery stores and just look at products they sell. I love trying out new things, we get our veggies from a CSA (yes, I've visited that one too) and eggs are provided by our own backyard chickens.

** We now interrupt this program for a PSA: Tomorrow, October 3rd, from 10am-3pm: Hen-apalooza. A Chicagoland chicken coop tour. Come and learn about raising chickens in your backyard: http://www.thechainlink.org/events/henapalooza-chicagoland. Now back to our regualr scheduled program **

And yes, meat is part of what I like. And that is where I think you are coming off as condescending: Your inability to accept that people who have done their homework just like yourself can come to a different conclusion about eating meat.blockquote>


Keeps with Marauders tradition. ;-)
Wow.

Jason said:
And as I said before, "I eat meat because it tastes good" is a weak argument IMO. In light of all the evidence of what the costs of a meat rich diet are to the planet, it's health and ultimately and literally our own health as a species, that's basically the same argument as saying "I have sex with underage girls in brothels in Thailand because it is physically pleasurable."

Woo hoo! Now single-family homeowners are morally-bankrupt too!

When do we start bitching about people who don't like the same kinds of music and movies that you(general) do?

Now give me that shovel - it's not helping! (Or is that 'get off your horse'?)

tzizzle said:
You can't just focus on changing individual minds. You have to change the system: the built environment, institutions of various sorts, economic power relations, etc.

People didn't come out of the womb addicted to SUV's and single-family homes. They were trained after years of conditioning.

Deciding whether or not to eat meat has some political value. But it's not going to change the world. To do that, to make all food production sustainable and make the entire US bikable, we're going to need to talk about social movements.

Essential reading for anyone convinced that we have to make radical changes to avert eco-catastrophes in the near future: http://www.ecologyandsocialism.org/
He's kind of right though.

.


Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:
Wow.

Jason said:
And as I said before, "I eat meat because it tastes good" is a weak argument IMO. In light of all the evidence of what the costs of a meat rich diet are to the planet, it's health and ultimately and literally our own health as a species, that's basically the same argument as saying "I have sex with underage girls in brothels in Thailand because it is physically pleasurable."

If it's thailand it's a boy.

I was gonna add a pic but even that passes my boundries.

I do enjoy that someone awhile back in this nonsense said we need more regulation for the meat industry. Love hippies that want MORE laws. ;-)

And Ryan, some peeps are in desperate need of a proctology exam to get all the crap out! ;-)

I'm not like Jason. I don't give a shit what anyone eats or how they live their life. I don't want more government regulation. Government is corrupt and full of shit. Some people recycle because they think it will save the environment.... well good for them?

Groups like PETA and even Critical Mass just piss people off more than covert them to their cause. I think it's hilariously fucking retarded how there's so much division and arrogance within these fringe groups. I want legalization of marijuana and all illegal narcotics. I want the gun ban to be lifted in Chicago. Yeah that's the kind of vegan I am.
Gabe, I'm getting to the point where I'm going to start forgetting how to say anything but 'Mmmmmmm'.

Gabe said:

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