Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Maria Boustead on August 13, 2010 at 5:56am

I disagree that it is just hype. There are have been several research studies that compare how far money travels when you buy from a chain store compared to a local store. Here are two for reference: Andersonville study and Midcoast Study. Also, circulating currency makes for a healthier economy because it means that things and services are being bought and sold and there are jobs attached to each of those interactions.

Beyond studies, it makes sense. Let's say you buy a $100 item from Target in Chicago. Probably about $20 stays in Chicago to pay for the overhead of having a store here, while $50 goes to China to pay for the item and the rest goes to Target HQ in Minneapolis to spend on HQ overhead and for buying more things from China. In comparison, if you buy $100 Po Campo bag from a Chicago store, the store keeps $50 and spends it on its overhead and buying more local product, while we get the other $50 and give it to Chicagoans to pay for their wages. There IS a difference.

Michael Perz said:

I'm probably going to come off as a confrontational grouch by saying this, but that "adage" is nothing more than disingenuous marketing hype designed to tug at the heartstrings. By the very same logic it would be even more beneficial to simply not buy the product in the first place. Imagine how much more money stays in the community if it never leaves my bank account!
Maria Boustead said:

You know the adage about how much more money stays in the community when you buy from a local store rather than a chain store, right? Well, imagine the impact of buying from a local manufacturer rather than an oversea manufacturer.

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Permalink Reply by J on August 13, 2010 at 6:36am

This is a perennial topic in cycling message boards, and really not unique to Chicago and it's a question I get a lot where I work because we focus strictly on custom bikes.

Without taking a political stand on the issue of domestic production, I'll say this: the average person can't do anything to reverse the trend of outsourcing in the bicycle industry. But you can put your money where your mouth is, and buy products like Po Campo bags, Owen Lloyd frames (among many many others), Wound Up forks, Phil Wood/White Industries/Chris King hubs, Thomson stems, Park Tools, and all varieties of cycling apparel, etc.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on August 13, 2010 at 6:56am

I'm not arguing that manufacturing jobs are good and would be a boon to the economy and I don't think anyone else here is either.

I think there are a few major issues where this whole thing is getting derailed:

1) You are polluting the discussion with your hate of retail jobs, box stores and such. Every time people point out the issues with bringing the jobs here you just respond that the jobs are better and needed... I'm not disagreeing with these things but they have nothing to do with the whole concept of bringing manufacturing jobs into Chicago, or the US in general. You, me and everyone else can stand on our roof screaming about how much better manufacturing jobs are over retail and it IS a viable argument in favor of creating those jobs but it is not going to make it happen and is a moot point in this discussion.

2) You are trying to lobby for the creation of industry and jobs that you do not understand which makes it hard for you to see the needs of a large manufacturer and that makes it almost impossible for you to understand what would be an incentive for them to move to Chicago or to see the things that keep them away.

3) You started off talking about large scale manufacturing and have now scaled it back to small scale manufacturing which is an apples to oranges comparison not just in the needs of the company but also on the impact that it has on the community...


Rick norris said:

I got bored with listening to how I never been in a factory....
SO I guess I never worked in a shop and built equipment, that I later installed and set up.
I agree I show my age when I talk about manual equipment, no I'm not so old that manual stuff was used in production, but it was in tool rooms and prototype, now I guess it's common for CNC.

Calling me out on my lack of knowledge on opening a factory is no big deal I never said I KNEW HOW. I also never said manufacturing had to be a large operation, plants can employ a couple of people to thousands.

What pisses me off is why is such a big deal being made about low end retail jobs, by a company that isn't exactly known for treating it's employes the greatest? When there are plenty of people here that could MAKE something and produce a real income not only for the employee but for the area.

Retail (IMO) is what gets manufactured goods to the consumer and a needed service.

Manufacturing buys raw materials (from many different places, yes even other countries, contributing to the economy in other areas) Those materials are transported in (jobs for truckers, RR people, aircraft...)
Turned into a final product (thats the factory) Shipped out (more trucks and such....) to local and other countrys (bringing other money back into the area)

As far as I can see retail imports the product, (still involving transportation) then sells the product locally. The money does flow back in fourthm but in a much more limited way.

Because manufacturing GENERALLY....notice I said generally because just like retail there are good places to work and crappy places. When people have more money they can spend more money in their community. Yes even on housing, WITH sensable mortgages.

I BELIEVE and this is my idea, that the time for manufacturing to make a return as a viable source of income is a lot sooner than people think.
I BELIEVE that people need to get off their ass and do some reall labour with their hands, not wait for obamanomics to get then a bail out so they can go to school and learn to re-package loans.
I BELIEVE bringing jobs (like manufacturing) closer to people will help with cutting down pollution from shipping....many people make this claim with farming buy local because of shipping costs (Your right I DONT have an understanding of the complex things involved that allows asperigus from Peru to be sold in the Jewel around the corner from me)

I BELIEVE I am once again bored with this, I did 50+ miles yesterday, and am heading out for a ride now...


notoriousDUG said:

You're bored with it because you want to simplify an complex issue to the degree that it fits your own narrow view of the subject and have been called out on your lack of knowledge.

to be honest with you the job future is going to be in the skilled trades but that is a whole other discussion and is going to require a lot of changes in or cultural views of what is, and is not, a 'good' job.

There may also be a time when large scale manufacturing is a viable enterprise in the US but it will take a lot of changes to not only our economic models but also out cultural models. Right now small scale and boutique manufacturing is where we need to look to in my opinion.

Rick norris said:

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on August 13, 2010 at 7:07am

I'm sorry but this is a really, really sloppy rationalization using completely made up numbers and I think it is not a very good representation of where the money goes. I'm not going to deny that buying locally made items in a local shop probably keeps more of each dollar spent in the local economy but I highly doubt the disparity is anywhere near what you are making it out to be.

I mean you double dipped wages in the local example; these are part of overhead. You did not account for the extra cost Target has of shipping stuff around and you are also sort of ignoring the fact that a bag sold at a local shop like Boulevard needs a much larger percentage of it's sales price put into overhead because the lower volume sold.

Maria Boustead said:

Beyond studies, it makes sense. Let's say you buy a $100 item from Target in Chicago. Probably about $20 stays in Chicago to pay for the overhead of having a store here, while $50 goes to China to pay for the item and the rest goes to Target HQ in Minneapolis to spend on HQ overhead and for buying more things from China. In comparison, if you buy $100 Po Campo bag from a Chicago store, the store keeps $50 and spends it on its overhead and buying more local product, while we get the other $50 and give it to Chicagoans to pay for their wages. There IS a difference.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Perz on August 13, 2010 at 7:20am

If I could still edit my post I'd change it to emphasize disingenuous. That mantra, however dolled up and fuzzyfied it may be, is nothing more than ol' timey nativism and a nod to the us-versus-them sentiment.



Maria Boustead said:

I disagree that it is just hype. There are have been several research studies that compare how far money travels when you buy from a chain store compared to a local store. Here are two for reference: Andersonville study and Midcoast Study. Also, circulating currency makes for a healthier economy because it means that things and services are being bought and sold and there are jobs attached to each of those interactions.

Beyond studies, it makes sense. Let's say you buy a $100 item from Target in Chicago. Probably about $20 stays in Chicago to pay for the overhead of having a store here, while $50 goes to China to pay for the item and the rest goes to Target HQ in Minneapolis to spend on HQ overhead and for buying more things from China. In comparison, if you buy $100 Po Campo bag from a Chicago store, the store keeps $50 and spends it on its overhead and buying more local product, while we get the other $50 and give it to Chicagoans to pay for their wages. There IS a difference.

Michael Perz said:

I'm probably going to come off as a confrontational grouch by saying this, but that "adage" is nothing more than disingenuous marketing hype designed to tug at the heartstrings. By the very same logic it would be even more beneficial to simply not buy the product in the first place. Imagine how much more money stays in the community if it never leaves my bank account!
Maria Boustead said:

You know the adage about how much more money stays in the community when you buy from a local store rather than a chain store, right? Well, imagine the impact of buying from a local manufacturer rather than an oversea manufacturer.

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Permalink Reply by Maria Boustead on August 13, 2010 at 8:39am

Okay, you're right my comment was sloppy and I apologize for that. I work as a design consultant for large fast-moving consumer good companies and understand that economies of scale have both positive and negative effects. I guess that's one of things I enjoy about working in and with small business. I know what we buy and generally know what they buy and can generally see where money is being spent. In large, global companies it is much more complex and largely invisible. So, I acknowledge that has less to do with the value of manufacturing locally and more to do with my personal comfort level.

notoriousDUG said:

I'm sorry but this is a really, really sloppy rationalization using completely made up numbers and I think it is not a very good representation of where the money goes. I'm not going to deny that buying locally made items in a local shop probably keeps more of each dollar spent in the local economy but I highly doubt the disparity is anywhere near what you are making it out to be.

I mean you double dipped wages in the local example; these are part of overhead. You did not account for the extra cost Target has of shipping stuff around and you are also sort of ignoring the fact that a bag sold at a local shop like Boulevard needs a much larger percentage of it's sales price put into overhead because the lower volume sold.

Maria Boustead said:

Beyond studies, it makes sense. Let's say you buy a $100 item from Target in Chicago. Probably about $20 stays in Chicago to pay for the overhead of having a store here, while $50 goes to China to pay for the item and the rest goes to Target HQ in Minneapolis to spend on HQ overhead and for buying more things from China. In comparison, if you buy $100 Po Campo bag from a Chicago store, the store keeps $50 and spends it on its overhead and buying more local product, while we get the other $50 and give it to Chicagoans to pay for their wages. There IS a difference.

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Permalink Reply by payton on August 13, 2010 at 10:25am

First off, trust J.: for bike manufacture, it doesn't pay to make stuff in the USA, much less in the city of Chicago. (Nor are Cannondale bike frames being made in the PRC; they're made in Taiwan, where salaries aren't that cheap and where worker protections are okay.)

Daley has done more to retain manufacturing jobs in Chicago than many other cities have -- the Finkl Steel factory is one huge testament to that, or lowering Lake Street so that semis can drive under the "L" -- but let's face it, there are very few industries where it makes economic sense to locate in the city. Stuff like printing or convention exhibits, sure, since they need fast access to their customers in the city. Anything for export, though, goes to the southwest suburbs: better and uncongested access to interstates and railroads (nothing goes by lake barge), cheap space, and plenty of workers.

David said:

To bring this back to chainlink a bit, in my opinion massive improvements in bike and public transit infrastructure would attract high-skilled knowledge workers to the city and good jobs would follow. But that's another topic for another day.

Transit and bike investment does bring along local businesses, and these two sectors tend to create more local jobs per dollar than other investments (since both have relatively high labor inputs and low capital inputs). In fact, one study for New York state found that investment in transit generated more local jobs than any other sector -- although admittedly, NY has a big railcar industry upstate. Wisconsin, interestingly, has a pretty sizable bike industry around Madison and just recruited a Spanish high speed railcar company to build a factory in Milwaukee.

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