Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by knowbody on July 9, 2010 at 10:03am

the voices tell me what to do...

Permalink Reply by Michael Perz on July 9, 2010 at 10:19am

Holy crap. The eight hour workday has been abolished? Why didn't anyone bother to inform me of this?

Permalink Reply by Spencer "Thunderball" Thayer! on July 9, 2010 at 10:37am

I meant the struggle to get the the eight hour work day. ; P

In 1864, the eight-hour day quickly became a central demand of the Chicago labor movement. The Illinois legislature passed a law in early 1867 granting an eight-hour day but had so many loopholes that it was largely ineffective. A city-wide strike that began on May 1, 1867 shut down the city's economy for a week before collapsing. On June 25, 1868 Congress passed an eight-hour law for federal employees [3] which was also of limited effectiveness. (On May 19, 1869, Grant signed a National Eight Hour Law Proclamation.[4])

In August 1866 the National Labor Union at Baltimore passed a resolution that said, "The first and great necessity of the present to free labour of this country from capitalist slavery, is the passing of a law by which eight hours shall be the normal working day in all States of the American Union. We are resolved to put forth all our strength until this glorious result is achieved."

Permalink Reply by Shay on July 10, 2010 at 3:38am

Um...I just came here to ride bikes.

*looks confused*

Permalink Reply by Craig S. on July 10, 2010 at 3:51am

This is the most logical and truthful conclusion in this discussion which is driving me to open a breakfast beer.

Davo said:

You make my brain hurt. So my truth is that I will have to drink some beer to come to my conclusion.

Permalink Reply by Spencer "Thunderball" Thayer! on July 10, 2010 at 4:20am

Clark,

Your's is a common myth created after the memory of the struggle for the Eight Hour Day vanished. We assume the eight hour day is a logical use of ones time because modern technology and efficiency of production allows us this leisure time. Eight hours labor, eight hours play eight hours sleep; right? Yay capitalism!

But that just isn't the case. The truth is that the ownership class fought tooth and nail against the eight hour day because it was reducing their productivity by nearly half or required them to hire almost twice as many people which would of course cost them more. Clark, many eight hour day organizers were murdered for speaking out. Please read this book to learn more about it and read this paper from the other side who thought the eight hour day would destroy industry and bring about a socialist nightmare.

Is it a moral victory? YES.

Clark said:

The 8-hour day was a natural outgrowth of the Industrial Revolution and the first commercial oil well in 1858...which removed the yoke of manual labor from mankinds' shoulders, at the expense of the environment. So was the 8-hour day REALLY a moral step forward?

Permalink Reply by cutifly on July 10, 2010 at 8:29am

I simply cannot help myself. When I saw this I thought how cute this kid was and how environmentally conscious he is being at the same time (bike cart)

Permalink Reply by T.C. O'Rourke on July 10, 2010 at 8:32am

Uh... hypothetically, yeah?

iggi said:

lets say...a bike is stolen. a search for the bike ensues. a bike is found that matches the description of the stolen bike. an effort is made to recover this bike, and is ultimately taken back from this thief. for purposes of this discussion, lets pretend we are positive this is a bike thief that the bike is recovered from. it turns out that this bike is not the stolen bike, but we do it is a stolen bike that was in the hands of a thief trying to make a profit on it.

Permalink Reply by Andrew Bedno on July 10, 2010 at 10:58am

Spencer, I love your mind. Can't weight in, as age/wisdom has grayed all absolutes, and taken me to post-POST-modern.
But worth mentioning, I suspect the intro should read "both morally correct AND in error"

Permalink Reply by Spencer "Thunderball" Thayer! on July 11, 2010 at 7:04pm

Clark,

Let me try again: my point was that DESPOILING THE ENVIRONMENT has made it possible for mankind to work only 40 of the 168 hours in a week...forget about the inequities of class struggle...Rather it has been the development of the oil industry, and heavily-polluting portable energy sources (internal combustion), that have allowed for such leisure.

I'm afraid I can't forget about class inequality or privileged because the basis of your argument is coming from a privileged perspective which must be challenged. I don't know your background so I cannot make many sweeping judgement but when you ask, "HAS WORKING LESS BEEN A MORAL ACT? Or merely one of laziness and sloth?" It forces me to assume that you are ignorant of how the vast majority of the world lives. Which makes sense because as American's it is very hard for the majority of us to recognize the role we play in the exploitation of much of the worlds resources and people.

The struggles of labor in this country and others is not something to diminish so easily. If you experienced the other end of the spectrum I doubt you would be calling people who want 16 hours of time a day not working "lazy."

Besides the correlation you have implied is that increases in productivity leads to increasing the leisure time of labor. This is absolutely incorrect. I stress this, you are 100% wrong. In America and the few other countries whose capital dominates the world market Labor has won tremendous victories. And in a few other countries where their capital isn't prime there has been life and death struggles to win labor freedoms. But throughout the vast majority of the world labor has remained in the 18th century. In fact it is so bad today that There Are More Slaves Today Than at Any Time in Human History! And it's not simply because the population of the earth has increased. And this has has a lot to do with the increased production and transportation capabilities that petroleum usage has provided.

I can go on and on on this topic and the economics behind it but instead of cluttering this philosophic intended post I will just invite you to find me at a ride sometime.

And my point was to question your initial statement that "..the abolition of slavery, child workers and the 8-hour-day may be seen as inline with morality today..." Sorry Spencer, but many now question the environmental trade-offs we accepted when we moved to the 8-hr day at the expense of the environment.

I doubt anyone, anywhere, who is rational and not completely evil thinks that the abolition of slavery is never worth the cost. But since I believe have sufficiently disproved your hypothesis that oil usage leads to lazy free labor it's a moot point.

We can debate if the human tendency to use resources in an economically advantageous and ecologically disastrous is immoral all day. And for the record I think it is immoral. But we should not nor can we tolerate anyone who uses such arguments to justify slavery and exploitation. Unacceptable. Even if that was not your intent the logical conclusions to your statements leads us to an acceptance of slavery if it will result in less ecological damage.

Enviromental Ethics is a valuable and critical new addition to our evaluation of human morality. But I just cannot accept any theory that puts human life lower than any other kind of life. For example if we were to take an Eco-Utilitarian model we would make our moral decisions on three things, Does this harm anyone? Does this harm our environment? And does it harm myself? No one thing is more important than the other. I think if you applied this logic system to your statement you would find a better answer.

Permalink Reply by Spencer "Thunderball" Thayer! on July 12, 2010 at 2:35am

Clark,
I was up until 1:30 watching it's always Sunny In Philadelphia and just signed on to see if there were any updates. ; ) But you are right. I didn't mean to attack you as evil. I should have clarified the rational part. What I meant by that is a complete analysis of ones moral principles to their utmost conclusion. Again I did not intend to call you or anyone on the Chainlink evil.

Permalink Reply by Michael Perz on July 12, 2010 at 4:47am

Step 6.

Clark said:

Wow Spencer! Thank you for your impassioned response...even tho you had to stay up til 2am to compose it. I spent over an hour this morning reading the interesting links in your post. Much appreciated.
But you malign me ("completely evil") unfairly...being descended from a whole bunch of Quakers, I doubt that I have a pro-slavery bone in my body...don't know how you inferred that. And your writing tends to express the same anthropomorphic (human-centric) thinking prevalent in the minds of many Chicagoans I've noticed. Unfortunately whether they attended a public or parochial school, many Chicagoans' thinking has been sadly affected by the anthropomorphism of the Catholic Church. Sorry...I grew up elsewhere, and don't subscribe.
And as far as your main argument about Class Struggle: I believe that EVERY 18-year old white male in the US is automatically the most privileged person EVER, in the history of the Earth. Women and other racial groups, only slightly less so.

And if each American doesn't fulfill his/her potential, and become whatever they wish, they have only themselves to blame. But they've gotta be willing to WORK...and work a lot more than an 8-hour day. I used to work 100-hour weeks; didn't like it, but I had my goals. I came from an impoverished background, with time in a foster home. So I knew I had a long way to go.

And I recommend a moral, disciplined life in five other ways too:
1. Don't get married til later; live alone - a spouse or live-in is a distraction from your goals; date only, but date well.
2. Get a degree, and then continue your education. Learn to write...properly. Knowing how to impress people, in person and in writing, is still a major secret of success.
3. Don't have children...ever. At $250 000 per child (the cost to raise an American kid) there are better uses for capital. And the world doesn't need any more kids...particularly polluting Americans.
4. This is a capitalistic society - you need CAPITAL to succeed. Live simply and frugally; work to build capital, then invest modestly, reacting to neither fear nor greed.
5. Always be generous. Make sure you have plans to give away everything you have to worthwhile recipients.

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