Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rubani on February 11, 2010 at 5:28am

Sometimes I wonder if the basis for the "we are traffic/behave like traffic" argument is skewed.

I remember reading that before the study of ergonomics, the military tried to understand why the best pilots would crash the latest and greatest aircraft. The realization was that pilot training and advanced aircraft engineering didn't consider the human propensity to act intuitively — particularly when fatigued or required to divide attention. The aircraft buttons, switches and their placement were redesigned and the rate of crashes went down.

If cyclists have exhibited similar behavior for over a century, maybe the common views civil engineering and urban planning take toward traffic management could use a fresh look.


S. Campbell said:

Even a hundred years ago it was recognized that if you wanted to be treated like traffic, you must act like traffic. Yes, sometimes it means stopping and putting your foot down at an intersection (stoplights and stopsigns heeded and right of way given to vehicles that have the potential to kill you) and riding slowly sometimes.
Jeez, we as a group (with the exception of all those supersafe obey-the-law-no-matter-what types) haven't learned much have we? :)

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Permalink Reply by S. Campbell on February 11, 2010 at 5:38am

Absolutely! I think that we should all continue to suggest and implement strategies for urban riding. I have also considered a project photographing "problem spots" on the roadways where cyclists are in danger due to inconsistent signage, blocked views, narrowing roadways and poor maintenance of bike lanes.

It would be nice if we could redesign roadways to accomodate everyone safely and comfortably.

For my part, I will continue to act like traffic and avoid pissing off drivers where possible. :)


Rubani said:

Sometimes I wonder if the basis for the "we are traffic/behave like traffic" argument is skewed.

I remember reading that before the study of ergonomics, the military tried to understand why the best pilots would crash the latest and greatest aircraft. The realization was that pilot training and advanced aircraft engineering didn't consider the human propensity to act intuitively — particularly when fatigued or required to divide attention. They redesigned the buttons, switches and their placement and the rate of crashes went down.

If cyclists have exhibited similar behavior for over a century, maybe the views civil engineering and urban planning take toward traffic management could use a fresh look.


S. Campbell said:

Even a hundred years ago it was recognized that if you wanted to be treated like traffic, you must act like traffic. Yes, sometimes it means stopping and putting your foot down at an intersection (stoplights and stopsigns heeded and right of way given to vehicles that have the potential to kill you) and riding slowly sometimes.
Jeez, we as a group (with the exception of all those supersafe obey-the-law-no-matter-what types) haven't learned much have we? :)

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Permalink Reply by Brendan Kevenides on February 11, 2010 at 6:10am

I agree. We are as entitled to the roadway as other users, but it is perhaps not quite right to say we are traffic. As anyone who has ridden a bike will attest, momentum is vital. A bicycle is fun because of the freedom of movement it encourages. Gliding along the pavement without doors or walls or a roof, under one's own power is what makes it so enjoyable. Riding around like "cagers" doesn't make much sense. For example, starting and stopping at every sign and light in the city is just a drag. Why even bother to ride then? Though Illinois law treats bicycles as "vehicles" like cars, buses and garbage trucks, bicyclists do not see themselves that way. Bicyclists see themselves as something between a pedestrian and a "vehicle". Bicycles operating in the city can at times travel nearly as fast as a car. At the same time, bikes are not nearly as heavy as other vehicles. They have a light maneuverability like a pedestrian. What sense does it make for a bike to be required to lumber about like a CTA bus?

Rubani said:

Sometimes I wonder if the basis for the "we are traffic/behave like traffic" argument is skewed.

I remember reading that before the study of ergonomics, the military tried to understand why the best pilots would crash the latest and greatest aircraft. The realization was that pilot training and advanced aircraft engineering didn't consider the human propensity to act intuitively — particularly when fatigued or required to divide attention. The aircraft buttons, switches and their placement were redesigned and the rate of crashes went down.

If cyclists have exhibited similar behavior for over a century, maybe the common views civil engineering and urban planning take toward traffic management could use a fresh look.


S. Campbell said:

Even a hundred years ago it was recognized that if you wanted to be treated like traffic, you must act like traffic. Yes, sometimes it means stopping and putting your foot down at an intersection (stoplights and stopsigns heeded and right of way given to vehicles that have the potential to kill you) and riding slowly sometimes.
Jeez, we as a group (with the exception of all those supersafe obey-the-law-no-matter-what types) haven't learned much have we? :)

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Permalink Reply by S. Campbell on February 11, 2010 at 9:52am

No, please don't take me wrong- I love the freedom of riding and not being encumbered with stop and start traffic signs and lights. There are times though when (personal belief) I find it safer to "take my turn" at a stop sign or put my foot down at a light and wait it out- especially if my view is limited or traffic is too fast or unpredictable.

I am by no means a perfect obeyer of traffic laws that apply to cars. I don't always stop at lights or stopsigns. Sometimes (most everyday) I salmon the wrong way down a one way street. But I do try to recognize that I am in the wrong and if need be- stop or move over for cars "obeying" the law.

I guess what I try to avoid is the feeling of absolute entitlement. I deserve respect, but I also know I deserve to respect fellow road users. I guess I just don't like the elitist attitude of many cyclists that I meet. How can you expect to be treated curteously when you spit on cars or scream insults at them? I've seen plenty of cyclists acting like this and it frightens me when I run into drivers that assume we're all the same kind of riders.

I don't know why I'm being preachy. Live and let live I guess. :)
Chicago Bicycle Advocate said:

I agree. We are as entitled to the roadway as other users, but it is perhaps not quite right to say we are traffic. As anyone who has ridden a bike will attest, momentum is vital. A bicycle is fun because of the freedom of movement it encourages. Gliding along the pavement without doors or walls or a roof, under one's own power is what makes it so enjoyable. Riding around like "cagers" doesn't make much sense. For example, starting and stopping at every sign and light in the city is just a drag. Why even bother to ride then? Though Illinois law treats bicycles as "vehicles" like cars, buses and garbage trucks, bicyclists do not see themselves that way. Bicyclists see themselves as something between a pedestrian and a "vehicle". Bicycles operating in the city can at times travel nearly as fast as a car. At the same time, bikes are not nearly as heavy as other vehicles. They have a light maneuverability like a pedestrian. What sense does it make for a bike to be required to lumber about like a CTA bus?

Rubani said:

Sometimes I wonder if the basis for the "we are traffic/behave like traffic" argument is skewed.

I remember reading that before the study of ergonomics, the military tried to understand why the best pilots would crash the latest and greatest aircraft. The realization was that pilot training and advanced aircraft engineering didn't consider the human propensity to act intuitively — particularly when fatigued or required to divide attention. The aircraft buttons, switches and their placement were redesigned and the rate of crashes went down.

If cyclists have exhibited similar behavior for over a century, maybe the common views civil engineering and urban planning take toward traffic management could use a fresh look.


S. Campbell said:

Even a hundred years ago it was recognized that if you wanted to be treated like traffic, you must act like traffic. Yes, sometimes it means stopping and putting your foot down at an intersection (stoplights and stopsigns heeded and right of way given to vehicles that have the potential to kill you) and riding slowly sometimes.
Jeez, we as a group (with the exception of all those supersafe obey-the-law-no-matter-what types) haven't learned much have we? :)

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