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Mr. Van Dellen, I’ve been staying off of this thread because I don’t know squat about the cost of manufacturing a bike. However, I’m fresh off another great cycling weekend in Detroit and I think my Detroit experiences give me some leeway to converse. I appreciate how receptive you have been to criticism and your efforts to keep the discussion on topic. With a couple of exceptions, I’ve found the information and exchanges on this thread to be of high quality and I’ve enjoyed following it.
First, Sam, I would like to know more about you so I can gauge your commitment. If we know nothing about you, you leave us to fill in the gaps with our imaginations. All we know right now is that you have appeared out of nowhere with an extremely ambitious plan (which still intrigues me) to revolutionize an industry worldwide while revitalizing an American city that is currently on its knees. Knowing more about you may help us see more of your perspective and understand your motivations better.
The following pieces of information would help me understand your endeavor better:
Where you are from?
What is your cycling background?
Are you representing yourself or an entity?
What is the source of your funding? A nationwide advertising campaign alone is a multi-million dollar effort, let alone retooling Detroit.
Some may be under the impression that you have no cycling background nor particular interest in Detroit, rather you just combined what’s hot (cycling) with what’s not (Detroit’s economy) for arbitrage opportunities. I believe there may have been some defensive comments because the natives are not going to allow you anywhere near their city if you can’t prove your motive is to help Detroit by providing jobs, and not just advancing yourself. Coming from a native Metro Detroiter, Mr. Van Dellen, let me tell you you’d better do your homework and study as much about the history of Detroit as possible or they will never trust or respect you.
H3, you bring up a great point about being from “Detroit”. It is so true that most people who say they are from Detroit do not live in the city. It’s just that saying you are from Detroit is a lot easier than saying you are from Livonia and then spending the next few minutes just getting back to the fact that it’s a Detroit suburb. Even when I was from “Detroit” I was talking about Downriver, but who is going to know where that is? Very few. Now I just say that I used to live in Metro Detroit and that seems to do the trick.
I think we need to remember that Detroit is a city that basically evicted its population starting in the late 60’s with the riots. Yes, I know there were other riots too but ’67 was the nail in the coffin. When your city burns for a week and the US Army is patrolling your streets, people are going to leave. Many of the baby boomers in the suburbs lived in Detroit at one time and can tell stories of its prosperity and how it hurt to leave the city. After white flight, most people’s lives still centered on the city itself because they worked there. I can’t put a blanket dismissal on the opinions and interests of suburban Detroiters (about 4 million in collar counties) just because they don’t live within the city limits. The suburban Detroit population proves over and over again that they will come to the city if you give them a reason. I think that is fair. The vast majority of people attending games at Comerica, Ford Field, and Joe Louis Arena are from the suburbs. I just participated in Tour de Troit this weekend, which was a smashing success (Todd Scott was a huge part of this) with huge numbers, and I can guarantee most of the participants were from the suburbs. What does that say about their interest in the city when 1500+ people want to come to and explore the city their parents left or to see remnants of what was, combined with examples of what currently is? A lot. Sorry to beleaguer, but my point is suburban Detroiters have a huge stake in the future of that city and we can’t dismiss what they say just because they don’t live in the city.
On the other side of the coin is that you can’t truly appreciate what it is like dealing with a city you don’t sleep in. Being subject to the laws, city services, police, schools systems, and taxes of a given city means that what you have to say carries a lot of inherent weight.
I agree with yellow jello that it may be wisest to try and create joint ventures and partnerships with existing manufacturers to bring production to Detroit instead of relocating everything. Ignoring the reality of foreign competition is one of the things that got Detroit in its current mess. Tariffs and quotas are not the answer. When the US hit Japanese imports with tariffs and quotas in the 80’s the quality of American cars went down as prices went up.
Dr. Doom, Detroit is a proud city. I don’t think you planned on offending anybody and most of what you said about Detroit was actually pretty true, but guess what? They’re frickin’ tired of hearing about it. Detroit and Detroiters want to hear solutions and ideas and are tired of being the most popular exhibit at the Museum of Failed Urban Planning, Greedy Unions, Corporate Greed, and Racial Segregation. I’m very happy to see that you have obviously cycled in the city and see its potential. For some reason, I too noticed an inordinate number bike salmon but they were all on the street and not the sidewalk.
Before bashing department store bikes, let’s keep in mind a typical American family. A kid growing up is probably going to go through four bikes by the time they are old enough to leave home. First, they’ll have a tricycle, then a bike with and without training wheels, next will be a 20” bike, and then probably and adult sized bike when they are in Jr. High or high school. That’s too much cash for families to be spending at a bike store when more economical alternatives exist. Additionally, the average adult who just rides a bike on the weekend in fair weather will probably be able to go their whole lives on one department store bike. I don’t think the buying decision is based solely on the present economy. Department stores have commoditized bikes and that needs to be accepted.
If you choose to choose a market segment above and beyond that, you are choosing to do business in a niche market. It’s hard to mass produce and achieve economies of scale in a nice market. Those who use bikes for commuting, grocery shopping, employment (couriers), or competitive cyclists are going to need something more but they are a small portion of overall cycling.
I think this ended up a little more rambling and incoherent that I had planned but I think I was mostly on topic. If I see I generate replies that are not on-topic, I will remove this post. In conclusion, Mr. Van Dellen, I would love to see your idea work and I want to encourage you to pursue it. It is a mountainous endeavor and where there’s high risk, there’s higher potential reward. I just want to make sure that if it ever works, most of that reward stays in the city of Detroit.
I meant less to bash Detroit (if my life were in a different place I'd move there tomorrow) than to point out that Chicago might be at least as viable a site for such an ambitious project. The South Side has a lot of the same needs as Detroit and a lot of the same resources, but it's a much easier place to do large scale business because the city government is actually functional. For instance, just to blue sky (and what else are we doing here?), you can pretty easily imagine Chicago wresting some federal funding and tax breaks to manufacture Velib/B-Cycle-style bikes in the city. I'm not really sure that's true of Detroit.
DUG, I know you weren't seeking my approval but I'm disappointed in the personal attack. I was listening to what you had to say earlier, but now you lost me.
I'm enjoying the thread. Thought I'd toss a log on the fire.
This is a press release regarding a multi million dollar bike manufacturing plan for Detroit. (Please note publication date.) And here is a NYT report of bike culture in Detroit. Seems the city is actually shaped like a wheel! hm.
I would love a good affordable domestically produced bike. I think I could justify a soma or kogswell frame at the moment. But wouldn't it be more realistic to have Detroit retool for production of coaches for intercity high-speed rail and urban mass transit?
Sign me up. I've been thinking of ways to get Detroit back in the loop lately too, and this has crossed my mind more than once. The only reason I moved out of Michigan was for work, but I'd move back in a heartbeat if I knew there were jobs there.
Sam, I also see Detroit as a blank canvas. My problem as well has been how to get something started. Obviously lots of capital and planning is needed, but like another poster said, once there is a reason to go there, people will come back. I also have an idealized view of what a reconstructed Detroit would look like, and I know that if we get enough people together with a common goal, we can come very close to achieving it. Just look at what they've done to the riverfront already.
If you read that article all the way through, it gets pretty wacky. I have never read a practical joke that was more accurately aimed at me in my life:). Bicycles, as a product, are REASONABLY simple to produce. While I completely agree that such coaches would be awesome, and should be built, likely even in Detroit, that is not my project. You're more than welcome to take it on. The more industry in this country, the better, the more jobs, the better. Also, in regards to the article in the NYT, that was one of the two things that got me started on this whole crazy ride to begin with. It was posted on Facebook within a few hours of this video (http://vimeo.com/2371774) , and taken together, they brought forth an idea that has grown and grown.
Barry said:I'm enjoying the thread. Thought I'd toss a log on the fire.
This is a press release regarding a multi million dollar bike manufacturing plan for Detroit. (Please note publication date.) And here is a NYT report of bike culture in Detroit. Seems the city is actually shaped like a wheel! hm.
I would love a good affordable domestically produced bike. I think I could justify a soma or kogswell frame at the moment. But wouldn't it be more realistic to have Detroit retool for production of coaches for intercity high-speed rail and urban mass transit?
good video Sam. Kind of sad. But some beautiful images.
I was a little surprised about people keeping goats and chickens, and the progress wildlife has made reclaiming the urban core.
ok Detroit make me a bike, I'll ride it back to Chicago.
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