Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Vilda on January 3, 2011 at 2:57pm

We can only hope James. ;-) We can only hope.

Permalink Reply by Minh on January 3, 2011 at 3:28pm

So you want the moderator to remove posts that don't support your view?

Jason said:

This is the reason every one of these public forum fails. Because the assholes always shout the loudest drowning everyone else out. Moderators don't moderate for rudeness or common courtesy, in a vain hope that the mythical egalitarian nature of the internet will weed out the bad apples, but it just isn't so. The bad apples just take over, like bullies in a sandbox, and everyone else leaves. Because who wants to listen to this bile? The forum eventually just devolves into the lowest common denominator. It happened with Bike Forums, Chifg, and clearly chainlink is on the same arc.

Permalink Reply by Jason on January 3, 2011 at 6:30pm

Oh I don't expect the moderators to do anything. That's one of my points. And Gabe and James and crew have proved my further point as well. A few trolls band together, shout everyone else down, and then preen and backslap. That's just the eventual endpoint for these types of forums. It's a shame, but oh well.

 

And frankly I couldn't really care any less. I plan on never returning to this or any other public forum. I have better things to fill my time and mind with than this sort of juvenile buffoonery. This sort of mob mentality is useless and wholly unproductive.

Permalink Reply by Vilda on January 4, 2011 at 2:59am

Bye Jason, we'll miss you, James was on your side btw. :-)

 

Chris, what on earth does the ATA have to do with anything?

 

Thanks Howard, good article. And for the purpose of this topic that's an otherwise healthy person physically with one tired or cumbersome limb. If someone is prone to whole body muscle fatigue we could extract that they would be an inferior driver.

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 4, 2011 at 3:00am

Howard, interesting link.  I think it depends on the driver's overall skill, knowledge and attitude and the equipment involved -and how that effects their choices about what it attempted regarding driving.

 

While I think that certain issues with physical limitations may effect a person's driving it is not as important by an order of magnitude (or more) than skill, knowledge and attitude. 

 

A bad driver will be a bad driver regardless of how "abled" they are physically.  Perhaps the most damaging handicap is stupidity.  There is no getting around stupidity no matter how many doo-dads and mechanical equipment changes are implemented.

 

Things like casts on arms and legs can be a hindrance but a smart, mindful motorist will be able to get around them with a little forethought and mindfulness and still be a safe driver.  A smart person in a leg cast would not even ATTEMPT to drive a manual transmission car  on the roads -but an automatic-transmission car might not be an issue at all.  The same thing for an arm cast.  Driving a car without power steering might not be a good idea -while a car with a ton of steering boost like my Camry where you can easily turn the wheel from lock to lock with one finger probably wouldn't be an issue at all.  Things like blinker use and related driving etiquette may or may not be a problem as well depending on how the car is laid out.   then again there are a majority of drivers out there who are just too put out to use them 90% of the time anyhow even though they ARE perfectly able to reach out with 1 little finger that oh-so-difficult three inches to use the damn thing. (yeah, I'm looking at you. If you don't use your blinker 100% of the time when in a car (those of you who do drive) then you probably ARE a bad driver).

 

And it's a matter of attitude.  You can tell the bad drivers from the good one from a mile away.  The ones who pull over to the right lane and pass a line of cars knowing that lane is disappearing in 100 yards only to shove in line again.   Everyone knows this isn't fair in any other line but somehow 20-25% of drivers think this is perfectly acceptable while driving (and don't give a flying frak about how dangerous this type of behavior is).

 

Then there are people like Jason who calls anyone who disaggres or has a different opinion a "troll."   This is the kind of thinking that is even more apparent when the line of thinking is a majority view and the "trolls" opinion trolling lies in the minority.  Kill the minority view evil trolls with FIRE!  Bring the moderators out and silence these unpopular, alternative, opposing views trolls before anyone reads them and maybe might think that there are people in the community who don't think exactly like them and might just need to logically deal with people with different priorities and ideas.

 

No, it's not good enough for the people who are offended by differing viewpoints trolls to just walk away from a certain thread or just not read the words.  They want them silenced totally so nobody else can read it.  If their personal (or worse yet) or majority viewpoint is challenged they want it SMASHED.

 

Oh, whatever.  I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion (even if it means they think that anyone who thinks differently than them should be silenced).  I'm fine with people like jason huffing and puffing and complaining "there goes the neighborhood" when a minority opinion moves in next door.  I just use a different method of judging an online community.  One that is homogeneous in thought  and has no outlying or opposing views is boring.  One that has its own Inquisition to silence and punish heresy trolls and drive them away is oppressive and soon becomes silent as the Inquisitioners never are happy with only silencing the smallest minorities and will eventually move to establish iron-clad orthodoxy.  At a certain point there is nothing left to discuss or every disagreement becomes a troll-hunt.

 

I not saying this is a "free speech" issue as this is not "public property" but is private property of the owners and maintainers of this site.  While it is a "public forum" it's not public property and they can run it with whatever rules they wish.  But by that same token how they run it will determine the quality of discussion as well as the diversity of it.  I find it interesting that those who claim to be for "diversity" on one hand are often the first to call others "trolls" when they are challenged by others who don't think the same way as them.

 

Such is life.

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 4, 2011 at 4:18am

It's a good question too. 

 

I would also like to know what the ATA's position is on granting driving licenses to handicapped individuals. 

 

What do we do with the handicapped?

 

My guess would be that it is a hot-potato subject and the ATA chooses not to have an official position as they wouldn't want to look bad.  I can see the handwriting on the wall with this line of discussion/reasoning as it approaches a point that will eventually lead to fulfilling the Godwin principle.

 

Chris C said:

Humor me.  My question stands.

Permalink Reply by igz on January 4, 2011 at 4:52am

the truth is ugly.  we dont want to say it, and an organization will never stand up to the truth to maintain a position of neutrality and political correctness, fairness to all, accessibility to all.

 

awarding fairness to some remove fairness from other. its how it goes.

 

and if you were to speak to the ugly truth...you are labeled a fascist.

 

i guess it comes down to a question of what is the greater good.

 

James Baum said:

It's a good question too. 

 

I would also like to know what the ATA's position is on granting driving licenses to handicapped individuals. 

 

What do we do with the handicapped?

 

My guess would be that it is a hot-potato subject and the ATA chooses not to have an official position as they wouldn't want to look bad.  I can see the handwriting on the wall with this line of discussion/reasoning as it approaches a point that will eventually lead to fulfilling the Godwin principle.

 

Chris C said:

Humor me.  My question stands.

 

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 4, 2011 at 5:11am

I supose it all depends on what flavor of "truth" one subscribes too -or if they even subscribe to the "greater good" theory or Utilitarianism.  You have it right that in order to give to one group you must take away from another group or individual.

 

The world is not fair.

 

Personally, I feel the "taking" part is evil no matter how "fair" some people feel it is or how much it improves the "greater good."  I think Utilitarianism has in fact ironically done nothing  but make the world a worse place regardless if it came from the theories of Bentham, Mill, Marx, Jughashvili, or Schicklgruber.

iggi said:

the truth is ugly.  we dont want to say it, and an organization will never stand up to the truth to maintain a position of neutrality and political correctness, fairness to all, accessibility to all.

 

awarding fairness to some remove fairness from other. its how it goes.

 

and if you were to speak to the ugly truth...you are labeled a fascist.

 

i guess it comes down to a question of what is the greater good.

 

Permalink Reply by igz on January 4, 2011 at 7:02am

utilitarianism essentially becomes self defeating, ultimately leaving nobody happy. selfishness is its greatest enemy.

James Baum said:

 

The world is not fair.

 

I think Utilitarianism has in fact ironically done nothing  but make the world a worse place regardless if it came from the theories of Bentham, Mill, Marx, Jughashvili, or Schicklgruber.

 

Permalink Reply by Vilda on January 4, 2011 at 7:33am

iggi. i'm a fascist and a troll. :-)

taking away from the handicapped has also been labeled as evil. that's kinda fun as it means safer traffic. so giving people a safer street is evil. yay!

if we dont agree that driving is difficult and is not a right than the rest of the debate is out the window.

cta and pace must by law serve the handicapped. no one has asked people to live in an attic.

instead they r being asked to recognize personal limitations. something no one in modern society has to do apparently.

Permalink Reply by Anne Alt on January 4, 2011 at 8:17am

It's also about having extra space to get out if you're using crutches or a cane, which can be difficult in a regular parking space.  At a few points in my life, I've dealt with a long recovery from injury and had a temporary handicapped placard.  For the folks who legitimately need those placards or license plates, being able to get a close parking space often makes the difference between having everyday errands be physically possible and having them be too exhausting and/or painful to be done at all. 

 

James Baum said:

It's about getting the damn chair out the side of the freaking vehicle dude -not about physically getting the vehicle in the space...

 

 

Gabe said:

 

My fav is that handicap drivers get a HUGE ass place to park the car. Parking is the easiest aspect of driving.

Permalink Reply by igz on January 4, 2011 at 8:47am

i am not advocating against ADA parking just offering a devils advocate approach...

making an allowance for the ADA parking spot takes away from the common person trying to park, and all too often those 50 ft of spaces which could accommodate 4 vehicles instead of the two it is reserved for sit vacant. in theory and practice, something is being taken away from the able person, almost penalized. thats fair?

Anne Alt said:

It's also about having extra space to get out if you're using crutches or a cane, which can be difficult in a regular parking space.  At a few points in my life, I've dealt with a long recovery from injury and had a temporary handicapped placard.  For the folks who legitimately need those placards or license plates, being able to get a close parking space often makes the difference between having everyday errands be physically possible and having them be too exhausting and/or painful to be done at all. 

 

James Baum said:

It's about getting the damn chair out the side of the freaking vehicle dude -not about physically getting the vehicle in the space...

 

 

Gabe said:

 

My fav is that handicap drivers get a HUGE ass place to park the car. Parking is the easiest aspect of driving.

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