LFP CAUTION! 9/30/11! Lots of Water!

Lakefront Path at Oak Street curve (just South of Oak Street Beach) has waves pushing up to the wall (as in, no getting around it). Be careful. I had water pushing up to the bottom of my frame for much of the curve.

At the time, it was still rideable. If you decide to go that route, be patient. My advice is to avoid and go to streets at Oak Street.

Also, just South of Fullerton, have to take the high path and was very crowded with runners and bikers and there was even standing water on the high path.

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Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on October 3, 2011 at 5:03am

It won't completely eliminate it, but it would make a huge difference in terms of being washed or sliding (in the case of ice) towards the water.

The problem is there really isn't a viable alternative from a commuting standpoint. When they shut down the LFP as part of the North Avenue beachhouse and LFP overhaul in the late 90s that was hammered home, that was the biggest pain in the ass ever. But we're talking about the lakefront, the City's crown jewel - it should be fixed to encourage more people to ride. Barriers don't strike me as a permanent solution as that would still require someone from the park district or police to make a judgment call.

I suspect the Army Corp of Engineers could fix it pretty easily, if the City would actually take the problem seriously - spend the money on the fix instead of on the inevitable lawsuit.

ad said:

I see what you're saying with the overly-steep slope, but keep in mind that when you have consistent 5 to 7 feet waves that means you are going to have rogue waves hitting the wall that are even higher. I'm not a marine engineer, but I think it's fairly safe to say when you're talking about that amount of water just changing the slope isn't going to completely eliminate the danger.

In my opinion the best solution here would be to install permant flip-up barriers with signs warning of the danger on the path, similar to how train crossings work. When waves are a real danger, lower the barriers and close the path. If people still chose to go around the barriers, I think the responsibility for the outcome largely falls on them at that point. I know the path is a major commutting tool, but there are readily-available alternatives if people are adequately warned.

Carter O'Brien said:

Ah, if we're talking about people ignoring barricades, that's a horse of a different color.

Regarding the engineering, the no-brainer is for them to just ease up on the slope - I installed my own patio & I know what it takes to allow for water runoff and I can assure you there is no reason for that corner to have such a steep slope.

But even if it cost millions to fix it properly by elevating it or by putting a higher wall there it would be worth it. Somebody IS going to drown if it isn't addressed, and given the amount of bike traffic on that stretch and how easily it gets iced over in the colder months, fixing it sooner rather than later is the smart way to go - and what did they just spend on that protected bike lane on Kinzie? I'd guess that street gets 10% of the bike traffic the LFP does on a good day.
ad said:

Not that you were necessarily going there Carter, but I've heard others lement the engineering of the path at this spot and suggest the City should do something engineering-wise to permanently fix this stretch. I guess my question would be what can the City do besides shutting it down on days like this? The stretch of the LFP that looked the most dangerous is already right up against LSD, so moving the path back further from the wall isn't an option. So that basically means either elevating the path in some way, or building a breakwall in the lake to dampen the waves before they reach shore. Either of those options would cost millions and are extremely unlikely to happen in the near future.

Now, I agree the City should do way more to get the word out earlier and close the path down when it's this dangerous. With that said, though, it seems people were still going around the barricades even when attempts were made to shut the path down.

Carter O'Brien said:
It's a question of horrible engineering, and why CPD/the City refuses to take responsibility for addressing it.

They didn't close the path until mid-morning Friday, it didn't look much worse when I got there at 730 than it does quite often during the year - if I turned around every time there was water washing up on the path there I'd be late to work on a regular basis.

Bernard Joseph Hannigan said:

Ah yes, Darwin was at work on the LFP yesterday....CPD had the trail CLOSED...Darwin award nominees indeed!

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Permalink Reply by Charlie Short 2.9 on October 3, 2011 at 8:06am

The biggest challenge with anything on the LFT is that it's 1) the jurisdiction of the Chicago Park District 2) a multi-use trail, not a simple running/cycling path (it needs to be engineered to accommodate motor vehicles and be wide enough to "comfortably" have peds and bike on at the same time.) If you want to make a change, contact the park district (312.742.PLAY, ask for facilities management when you get to the operator.) And don't tell me you couldn't call, you had time to post on this board.

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Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on October 3, 2011 at 9:07am

You are certainly correct on points 1 and 2, as for 3, this kind of change won't happen via the Park District. I contacted numerous Park District staff the last time I had a bad fall on black ice here, & got endless run-arounds. The people you'll be able to reach on the phone/internet aren't the decision makers.

This requires political willpower, and like I said, I don't think it's going to be on anyone's priority short list until a lawsuit forces the issue (think MWRD's Terry O'Brien incredible wasted efforts to prevent the river from being disinfected). It's not the end of the world by any stretch, but posting here at least raises some awareness of the problem for people that use the LFP, and if anyone can fix this, it's Active Trans - they have done more to improve the lakefront than any group.

Charlie Short said:

The biggest challenge with anything on the LFT is that it's 1) the jurisdiction of the Chicago Park District 2) a multi-use trail, not a simple running/cycling path (it needs to be engineered to accommodate motor vehicles and be wide enough to "comfortably" have peds and bike on at the same time.) If you want to make a change, contact the park district (312.742.PLAY, ask for facilities management when you get to the operator.) And don't tell me you couldn't call, you had time to post on this board.

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Permalink Reply by Anne Alt on October 3, 2011 at 9:23am

The weather forecasters were all predicting high winds off the lake. Whenever we have strong NE winds, we have breaking waves there. It's no surprise and it's not rocket science. There should be a level of personal responsibility regarding path use in questionable conditions. Whether we commute on path or streets, it's "use at your own risk." If you have time to prep for a bike commute, you have 30 seconds to check the weather online. On-street alternatives may not be as convenient, but they are safer in conditions like what we saw last week.

If you choose to be a Darwin award nominee in spite of well-publicized weather conditions (and what you're likely to experience long before you reach Oak St.), that is your choice and your responsibility. The engineering may be less than ideal, but you know what you're dealing with there. [off my soap box now ;) ]

Carter O'Brien said:

It's a question of horrible engineering, and why CPD/the City refuses to take responsibility for addressing it.

They didn't close the path until mid-morning Friday, it didn't look much worse when I got there at 730 than it does quite often during the year - if I turned around every time there was water washing up on the path there I'd be late to work on a regular basis.

Bernard Joseph Hannigan said:

Ah yes, Darwin was at work on the LFP yesterday....CPD had the trail CLOSED...Darwin award nominees indeed!

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Permalink Reply by Tim S on October 3, 2011 at 9:36am

Well said Anne Alt.

Personal responsibility is a grand thing and in the current economic climate I highly doubt that the city is going to roll out millions to "fix" a problem that only occurs a few times a year when the break-wall does what it is designed to do... protect LSD.

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Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on October 3, 2011 at 9:45am

Anne, your entire argument is based on a flawed understanding of the law -if your car goes into a monstrous pothole or you trip on a broken sidewalk you can seek financial restitution. Happens all the time, read and learn:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/09/20/thousands-of-crumbling-sidew...

As for your contention that this is a question of individual responsibility, I find it curious the Park District doesn't feel that way when it comes to actually swimming. Ever tried to go in deep water at one of the beaches? Can't have this both ways, and the City long ago decided it was in the business of micromanaging our behavior.

But the larger point here is that we're talking about a very small area of the most heavily - by far - trafficked recreational path in Chicago. And the sloping issue has nothing to do with extreme weather, if it's slick or icy that area is a problem.

FTR, I did/do check the weather every morning before I ride. And since I've been riding on the streets for almost 30 years, Darwin award insults just don't really stick.

Anne Alt said:

The weather forecasters were all predicting high winds off the lake. Whenever we have strong NE winds, we have breaking waves there. It's no surprise and it's not rocket science. There should be a level of personal responsibility regarding path use in questionable conditions. Whether we commute on path or streets, it's "use at your own risk." If you have time to prep for a bike commute, you have 30 seconds to check the weather online. On-street alternatives may not be as convenient, but they are safer in conditions like what we saw last week.

If you choose to be a Darwin award nominee in spite of well-publicized weather conditions (and what you're likely to experience long before you reach Oak St.), that is your choice and your responsibility. The engineering may be less than ideal, but you know what you're dealing with there. [off my soap box now ;) ]

Carter O'Brien said:

It's a question of horrible engineering, and why CPD/the City refuses to take responsibility for addressing it.

They didn't close the path until mid-morning Friday, it didn't look much worse when I got there at 730 than it does quite often during the year - if I turned around every time there was water washing up on the path there I'd be late to work on a regular basis.

Bernard Joseph Hannigan said:

Ah yes, Darwin was at work on the LFP yesterday....CPD had the trail CLOSED...Darwin award nominees indeed!

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Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on October 4, 2011 at 2:25am

Like I said earlier, the quick fix is simply to repave that stretch to address the slope. Watch the video again - getting knocked off one's bike is one thing, but being washed INTO the lake due to that slope is a different story. The wall just south of Fullerton gets hit with massive waves and water all the time, but it's flat, so that specific problem doesn't exist.

Tim S said:

Well said Anne Alt.

Personal responsibility is a grand thing and in the current economic climate I highly doubt that the city is going to roll out millions to "fix" a problem that only occurs a few times a year when the break-wall does what it is designed to do... protect LSD.

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Permalink Reply by Liz on October 4, 2011 at 3:02am

People would still be knocked over by waves of the same size that hit last friday with a change in slope. Why not address the problem by installing a protective, water permeable barrier at the edge of the path along the lake at that curve similar to a safety rail along a bridge or dangerous curve for motor vehicles.

This would prevent someone who falls over from potentially being swept into the lake.

Carter O'Brien said:

Like I said earlier, the quick fix is simply to repave that stretch to address the slope. Watch the video again - getting knocked off one's bike is one thing, but being washed INTO the lake due to that slope is a different story. The wall just south of Fullerton gets hit with massive waves and water all the time, but it's flat, so that specific problem doesn't exist.

Tim S said:

Well said Anne Alt.

Personal responsibility is a grand thing and in the current economic climate I highly doubt that the city is going to roll out millions to "fix" a problem that only occurs a few times a year when the break-wall does what it is designed to do... protect LSD.

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Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on October 4, 2011 at 7:40am

The slope is also bad news when there's a thin coating of ice -with the morning sun reflection it can be hard to tell when it's just wet or if it's frozen. And that's far more than a few times a year, and the weather reports don't exactly go into that kind of detail - just because it's technically above-freezing doesn't mean ice from the evening has thawed.

Your solution would definitely be wise. I was just saying I'd settle for the cheap fix. : ) But in addition to just wanting to see a tragedy, I'm also a taxpayer - I don't want to see some massive settlement any more than Anne and Tim do.

Liz said:

People would still be knocked over by waves of the same size that hit last friday with a change in slope. Why not address the problem by installing a protective, water permeable barrier at the edge of the path along the lake at that curve similar to a safety rail along a bridge or dangerous curve for motor vehicles.

This would prevent someone who falls over from potentially being swept into the lake.