Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by dan brown on October 22, 2012 at 5:27am

this questions seems like a troll bait. I am reluctant to jump in...but here goes.

 

You can buy a bike cheap several places, but if you are looking at the price of a bicycle at a (locally owned shop to be specific), you are buying a lot more than a bicycle. You are buying a relationship where you want to give and receive good karma. This has come up repeatedly here : purchase a bike (and often certain things are negotiable (i.e. add-ons, swapping out some parts)) at a locally owned shop and the repairs are much more pleasant (quicker, sometimes easy adjustments are done free of charge). Walk into the same shop (for the first time) with a bike bought on-line and the experience may be very different. So far I have always purchased from shops that I like that are close to my house where I feel comfortable having them peform the repairs that I cannot do or choose not to.

 

But to back up a little bit - I'm not even sure what your point or question is.

"Several years ago" a bike was $400 and now they are 'a thousand dollars' ?

Do you have any knowledge of component groups (how they differ) and frame materials, etc.

so you can compare apples with apples ? Also - *when* you purchase a bike has a LOT to do

with the price. I bought my road bike from a local shop right before the owner (a friend) was

going to box it up and ship it back to the mfr (it was a previous year model and no one seemed to

want a 59cm Raleigh (everyone wanted Treks back then)). I ended up getting it for $1300 off

the list price (because he was too lazy to pack it up and ship it back). Timing seemed to

be everything in that case.

 

Clint gave some good advice above and I am sure others can and will too.

 

 

DB

 

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on October 22, 2012 at 5:27am

I'm just curious but between a $300 bike and a $1,000 bike what is the 'crap' that you get with th enicer bike that you do not need?

Clint H said:

Like anything else, a bike is worth whatever the person selling can get somebody to pay for it. Bikes sell for a grand because people are willing to spend a grand for all the bells and whistles. (Though ironically, thousand-dollar bikes rarely come with bells or whistles.) I never pay more then $300 for a bike, because I'm not running the Tour or circling Lake Michigan, and I don't need all that crap. You might need or want all that crap, in which case the $1,000 is worth it.

That's the question only you can answer: Do you need or want the benefits offered by a thousand-dollar bike?

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Permalink Reply by Tim S on October 22, 2012 at 5:30am

Too bad the historical MSRP does not go back to my vintages but the inflation calculator is an interesting tool. Seems that at the time I spent between $800 and $2500 in today's dollars so I don't see a problem with dropping that kind of money on a proper bike that can last you for a long time.

Cameron Puetz said:

Playing with historical MSRP data at BikePedia and the BLS's inflation calculator, the price of entry level road bikes has held steady or fallen some when corrected for inflation.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on October 22, 2012 at 5:31am

What is going on is that nice stuff costs more to make than shitty stuff regardless of where you make it. 

You can get a bike from Bikes Direct and there is nothing wrong with them but you should budget in $100-$120 to have it built by a bike shop unless you know how to hand finish your wheels and how to get everything set up properly.

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Permalink Reply by S on October 22, 2012 at 5:40am

The cross bikes tend to be have better quality and have components that can withstand more wear and abuse and still function well.  If you want something that'll get you from point A to B, then there are bikes that you can get from working bikes that'll cost you 100-300.  But you probably won't be able to ride 200+ miles on them every week for a year without having to replace a bunch of components and having to deal with nagging issues where things don't quite work as smoothly as you'd like.  

If you want cheap, you're free to go to Alibaba and get a deng-fu or whatever carbon fiber frame and build it up with cheap stuff off ebay but you'd better be prepared to deal with unexpected problems and/or doing a lot of the work yourself or paying a bike shop a bunch of cash to get things setup and fixed for you.

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Permalink Reply by Anne Alt on October 22, 2012 at 5:45am

I suppose what you "need" from a bike and what is "useless crap" would depend on how you would use that bike.  Years ago I bought a $300 mountain bike at a time when I could only afford something basic.  I knew I'd need to upgrade over time because the cheap components (more suitable for light duty use) wouldn't hold up over time under almost daily commuting and utility riding.  The first to go was derailleurs, then wheels (when I got tired of having the cheap machine built wheels trued all the time), then brakes, etc. 

I bought a decent quality steel frame, knowing that it would last and could be improved with better components.  Now I've replaced pretty much everything except that frame, which is still in good condition over 10,000 miles later.  Most of the components (such as heavy duty derailleurs and brakes and hand built cyclocross wheels) would be found on new bikes costing well over $1,000.

I used to spend a lot more time and money taking my bike to the shop to maintain cheapo stuff that wasn't up to the level of performance and durability I needed.  Now I just go for occasional tweaks, tune-ups and overhaul (when needed).  Do you get what you pay for?  I did.  I have a solid urban utility tank that keeps on going, not leaving me on the side of the road fixing stuff that broke.  Just my $0.02.... Your mileage may vary.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on October 22, 2012 at 6:01am

OK, so you have no idea what you are talking about then...

OK, first off all those super light road bikes you are talking about are not $1,000 plus bikes, they are $5,000 plus bikes.  Bikes around $1,000 are things like the Surly Cross Check and they are not super light bikes but they are not unreasonable and do not come with anything out of sight wheel or component wise.  What they do come with is reliability, longevity and less headaches. 

Buy a $1,000 to $1,500 bike and you will still be riding it pretty much as is several years from now after thousands of miles of reliable riding with only a little bit of regular maintenance and most of the original components.  Your $300 to $500 bike is either going to be relegated to the scrap pile or will have had some major work and component replacement done.

If you ride everyday and put on some miles you owe it to yourself to get a nice bike; you will be amazed how much more pleasant the riding experience is.

Clint H said:

I've never had a $1,000 bike, so I don't really know. From what I've observed, there's the material it's made of that affects the weight. My bike weighs next to nothing, while some bikes I see on the LFT actually weigh nothing, so you have to pay extra for whatever warp field you need to negate the existence of mass. Some bikes have form-fitted seats and handlebars, which are useful for long-distance riders. Some bikes have disc brakes. There's a lot of difference between components. There are the wheels (mine are pretty standard cheapies.) Some expensive bikes have computer systems or pedals that do stuff I don't need pedals to do. (Clips and such.) Put my bike next to a $1,000 bike, and the difference is pretty obvious.

Now for me, a guy who rides almost solely in the city where a bike quickly gets beat all to hell, the differences that add up to a 700 bucks (or more) don't do much more than give me something expensive to break. That's why I call it crap. Crap is a subjective term, though, and my crap may be your undigested filet mignon, in which case it's worth it.

notoriousDUG said:

I'm just curious but between a $300 bike and a $1,000 bike what is the 'crap' that you get with th enicer bike that you do not need?

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Permalink Reply by Anne Alt on October 22, 2012 at 6:03am

I guess your luck in picking quality stuff hasn't been the same as mine.  $pending on those cyclocross wheels has saved me money.  I am also hard on my bike, which routinely has to stand up to a load of 200+ lbs between me and stuff I'm carrying - over lots of railroad tracks and potholes.  Instead of spending $40 or more per month on truing, I got good quality wheels with heavy spokes that need to be trued maybe once every 2-3 years.  They're still going strong after 8 years and several thousand miles.

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Permalink Reply by Legacy Frameworks on October 22, 2012 at 6:26am

As a bike maker, and someone trying to make "affordable", quality, hand built bikes, I am constantly looking at cost and am amazed at how the big guys do it. What corners they cut, the balance of cheep labor and high shipping prices and distances and the sheer size of the operations. 

As an example - take, just my frame materials, the tubes and bits and pieces that go into a frame/fork up until it is ready for the paint. I am buying the most basic, bike specific tubing (chromolly, double butted) and most basic steel frame parts (bb shell, fork crown, bosses, etc..) and making what bits that will be more cost effective than buying. I buy what I can in bulk (about 25 frames worth) and direct from the manufacturer where I can. And it costs me about $125 per frame. And with wholesale components for a basic, quality single speed basically coming out to double that. 

You are looking at a pile of bare frame/fork material and a pile of hand selected parts coming out to $375

Many other people can attest to the quality you get from "big box" bike companies, Ive never bought new. I can only attest to the thought, consideration and time spent through my processes of design, fabrication, assembly, customization and support when someone buys an $1,100+ bike from me.

As a side note, I would love to set up one of my frames as a single speed "cyclocross" bike. The geometry may be closer to a touring bike, but they are fast and light regardless. They all have canti studs and room for whatever wheel/tires and can easily accommodate drop bars and a drop quill stem. If anyone would want to try it out and has a good base for comparison, let me know. 

Levi, Legacy Frameworks

 

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Permalink Reply by Anne Alt on October 22, 2012 at 6:26am

How much weight the bike needs to regularly carry is also a factor in wheel durability.  If you're a lightweight (less than 150 lbs), a wider range of wheels may work just fine for you and cheapos may hold up better than they would for someone who's larger and/or hauling a lot of stuff.  If you and your cargo add up to 200+ lbs, wheels break easier.

I've tried a few different options over the life of this bike: the cheapo original wheels, mid-priced machine built wheels, and moderately expensive hand built wheels.  The cheapo wheels lasted a little over a year.  The mid-priced wheels lasted less than 2 years.  Those more expensive wheels were a much better upfront investment, but if I look at my cost per year (wheels plus truing, spokes, etc.), that cost is less with the expensive wheels, and it goes down each year they last (over 8 years now). 

As I said earlier, your mileage may vary.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on October 22, 2012 at 7:05am

Then you need to take the bike shop that sold you the wheels to task as they should have lasted you.  I weigh 230 pounds and am very hard on bikes and my off the shelf wheels, which retailed for about $180 each, have held up fine but they were also properly prepped.  My hand built wheels may out last me...  If it needs to be adjusted all the time it is either not taking a beating or you are flat out abusive.

I am a daily commuter and the extra money I put into my bike pays me back all the time:

• I spent money on good tires; I have almost no flats, as in two in a year or more.
• I got a good steel frame; it is light, strong and will last forever.
• I invested in a high quality wheel set; my bike rolls smooth and has no wheel issues.
• I invested in good components; my bike stops and shifts like I want and I hardly ever have to service it.

In the two and a half years I have had it my commuter bike has gotten me around every single day almost with very, very few problems and almost no upkeep cost beyond normal parts replacement. I am never stranded by it or left walking or dealing with issues with it that make it hard to ride.  Really, how can a regular commuter not see the value in that?

Clint H said:

One thing ... while I usually do go cheap, one time I did get tired of having wheels as likely to stay true as a presidential campaign and spent a lot of money on the fancy ones. They didn't last nearly as long as my cheap wheels. That's the thing for me. I'm hard on a bike, so durability is much more important to me than weight or smooth operation. I'm okay with something that needs to be tweaked regularly. I'm less okay with something that can't take a beating and regularly breaks completely.

I would say that if you're a day-to-day commuter, the extra money just won't get you much. If you want peak speed or long-distance outside of daily city life, put up the cash. 

Anne Alt said:

I suppose what you "need" from a bike and what is "useless crap" would depend on how you would use that bike.  Years ago I bought a $300 mountain bike at a time when I could only afford something basic.  I knew I'd need to upgrade over time because the cheap components (more suitable for light duty use) wouldn't hold up over time under almost daily commuting and utility riding.  The first to go was derailleurs, then wheels (when I got tired of having the cheap machine built wheels trued all the time), then brakes, etc. 

I bought a decent quality steel frame, knowing that it would last and could be improved with better components.  Now I've replaced pretty much everything except that frame, which is still in good condition over 10,000 miles later.  Most of the components (such as heavy duty derailleurs and brakes and hand built cyclocross wheels) would be found on new bikes costing well over $1,000.

I used to spend a lot more time and money taking my bike to the shop to maintain cheapo stuff that wasn't up to the level of performance and durability I needed.  Now I just go for occasional tweaks, tune-ups and overhaul (when needed).  Do you get what you pay for?  I did.  I have a solid urban utility tank that keeps on going, not leaving me on the side of the road fixing stuff that broke.  Just my $0.02.... Your mileage may vary.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on October 22, 2012 at 7:09am

I ride a steel 90's mountain bike converted to a commuter bike; those fenders and rack ain't saving no weight for me.  It is the definition of clunky.  It is as far as you get from a bike built for speed, it is a bike built for utility.  My bike is built to operate trouble free and I don't just ride 2 or 3 days a week; I ride everyday unless I choose not to leave the house.

Your bike probably would work for me but not as well and not as reliably over time.

People spend money on bikes to make them reliable and useful; not just fast.

Clint H said:

Ah ... you must be one of the zealots. That's the thing with these conversations. People have their particular belief system, and everybody else has no idea what they're talking about.

I've had my current bike about five years. I ride about 10 or 15 miles almost every day. A little less in winter, but still two or three times a week. I don't feel like doing math, but I'm sure it's done several thousand miles. I take it in for a tune-up once a year or so. I've replaced no major components that aren't wheels. About once every other year, I get new wheels. (And as I said above, fancy, expensive wheels were not a benefit.)

Now, I'm sure my bike would not work for you. You'd probably find it clunky and uncomfortable, and that's fine. Spend the extra money and get what you want. Meanwhile, I get good mileage out of my bike without a lot of maintenance hassle and can hang very easily with shoalers on fancier models who just assume they're faster than me. My point: My experience won't work for everybody, but it works for me. It won't work for you, so spend the money. It all depends on what you're looking for.

notoriousDUG said:

Buy a $1,000 to $1,500 bike and you will still be riding it pretty much as is several years from now after thousands of miles of reliable riding with only a little bit of regular maintenance and most of the original components.  Your $300 to $500 bike is either going to be relegated to the scrap pile or will have had some major work and component replacement done.

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