E-Bikes?
This is part of an article I read on CNN...
Like Lemier-Elmore, e-bikers in the relatively bike-friendly state of Colorado are butting heads with tradition. In city halls, e-bikers are lobbying to gain access to bike lanes, bike paths and bike parks -- where motorized vehicles including e-bikes are often banned.
Residents acknowledge occasional roadway confrontations between e-bikers and non-motorized bicyclists -- ranging from friendly teasing to outright animosity.
Dean Keyek-Franssen, co-owner of Pete's eBikes stores in the Colorado towns of Boulder, Aspen and Frisco, describes bicyclists with skintight bike clothing as "Lycra-bound."
"You will have a Lycra-bound person passing an electric bike rider, telling her to get out of the bike lane," says Keyek-Franssen. "And it's just this elitist biking community that we have here in Boulder -- and that's great, it's a biking community -- as is Portland and Minneapolis -- and it comes with the territory."
Turned off by showroom price tags on factory-made bikes -- some as high as $3,500 -- many e-bike hackers are turned on by building their own rigs that are often faster and more powerful.
I'd have a lot more than "outright animosity" if one of these things bump into me in the bike lane.
Views: 116
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jason W on
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I'm not so sure Ryan. We should not be forced to argue with ebikes to get them to act responsibly. That should be a function of the law. People can be self righteous, and I doubt many would listen. Plus many cyclists are not the confrontational type, and they shouldn't have to be.
I think all the people that currently ride in the door zone is proof that getting doored does not happen often enough to change the way the majority rides. Accidents are not a substitute for education.
Some people are saying this gets more people on bikes which is good. Well this also makes the bike lanes more dangerous, which could easily keep more people off regular bikes.
Bottom line is I feel that if you push yourself, you belong in the bike lane. Everything else is just some form of motor vehicle. After all, it's a vehicle with a motor...
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Permalink Reply by Allen Wrench on
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I don't see any difference between a so-called E-Bike and a gas powered moped (G-Bike?). It's not a bike. It has a motor. Having said that, there are people who ride their electric or other moped considerately and who fit right in on the bike path. I guess that these newfangled things will give more normal schlubs the opportunity to act like Lycra-bound bike path criterium qualifiers, though. Like the Camaros of the bicycle world.
I think generally that the E-moped is a lamentable development. It should be legislated exactly like its gas powered ancestor.
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Permalink Reply by Todd Allen on
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>I don't see any difference between a so-called E-Bike and a gas powered moped (G-Bike?).
Have you ridden both?
One difference is that an e-bike doesn't have a gasoline tank. They use batteries as the source of energy. A typical e-bike has 20 lbs of sla (sealed lead acid) batteries giving it roughly 120 watt hours of useable energy per charge, at least when the batteries are new. Their capacity diminishes with age and use.
By comparison, a gallon of gasoline has roughly 36.6 kwh of energy. 36,600 / 120 = 305. That is it will take 305 full battery charges to equal the energy in a single gallon of gas. Another way to look at it is with gas selling at about $3 a gallon, a fully charged ebike is equivalent to a motorcycle with a penny of gas in the tank.
Ebikes are more efficient in turning the stored energy into propulsion, so it might be fairer to say it is like a motorcycle with 3 or 4 cents in the tank. It's possible to carry more battery but very rare for anyone to put more than 30 or 40 lbs of battery on a bike. It's also possible to use higher energy density batteries, such as nicads, nimh and lithium based batteries but as these are all far more expensive they aren't very common and most bikes sold with expensive batteries use small ones.
Thus my previous sarcastic post about buying performance. Speed is expensive on an ebike. If ones desire is to go fast without effort it is cheaper to buy a gas powered scooter or motorcycle.
People buy ebikes because they like pedaling a bicycle. If they don't pedal they won't be going very fast or they won't be going very far. But for people who do like riding bicycles there can be advantages to ebikes. The added power can be used to help one accelerate faster, climb hills better, or sustain a higher cruising speed. On windy days one might not use any power on the downind ride and then use it all to overcome the headwind on the way back. Being asthmatic, one of my favorite things about ebikes is being able to accelerate better from stops and mostly avoid getting caught in the exhaust fumes of accelerating trucks and buses. And when I do get caught in a soot cloud I often can stop pedaling, crank the throttle and hold my breath long enough to ride clear of it.
We don't regulate all gas powered bikes the same so the previous suggestion that all ebikes be treated the same as gas motor bikes is rather non-sensical. I think most of the posts here are by people who have never ridden an ebike and have little understanding of what they are. I've been riding ebikes for 14 years (and rode a variety of gas powered motorcycles for 20 years before I switched to ebikes) and I still don't know exactly what they are. Because there are literally endless possibilities.
For example, there have been multiple ebike systems developed just for climbing hills, some that only assist when ones speed drops below 6 or 7 mph. These systems can be quite small, just a pound or two for the battery and motor. There was a controversy that some Tour De France racers were using these systems. If they did, I'd join in the condemnation of the unsporting behavior. But on the streets there are people who ride for reasons other than competition. Like they just want to get somewhere.
My next electric bike project is likely to be an electric assisted cargo tricycle for my 76 year old mother in law to do her grocery shopping. She used to use a bicycle as her primary transportation and never got a driver's license. Due to age/health issues she's stopped riding and bemoans her loss of travelling freedom. An electric assisted tricycle could restore a significant amount of mobility for her. It would suck if the narrow minded folks here got their way and she has to get a driver's license, plates, insurance, etc. just to ride a trike with a small motor used to help her accelerate from stops at a reasonable pace without aggravating her bad knees.
I've got a friend who built himself a bullet bike that he calls the barracuda. It's a recumbent low racer with a full fairing. Without any motor other than his legs he can sustain 40 mph. He can do a century faster than I can on my most powerful ebike. He's been clocked just shy of 70 mph on a flat road without any tailwind,
Inspired by his I built a faired unpowered bike. Mine was substantially slower (not as aero and much weaker legs), but still faster than most road bikes. When I rode that around town I did get a little hostility from other cyclists, though less than is here in this discussion. But in all my years of ebiking, thousands of miles a year, I've yet to encounter any real hostility at all from another cyclist on the road. The worst has just been a rare gently teasing remark.
Anyway, my suggestion would be that if the real concern here is that folks will be riding too fast in bike lanes is to lobby for speed limits on bike lanes to be universally applied to all. If 20 mph is too fast lobby for something lower.
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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There are plenty of cyclists who can ride faster than 20 mph, and there are bike lanes where riding over 20 mph is perfectly safe (Elston is one I can think of). There are also many people already on the bike paths go much faster than 20 mph. Most ebikes are designed to "top out" so that they are not used to sustain speeds such at 40 mph, but there is nothing dangerous about being able to go 20 mph. I can go 20 mph on my road bike, but that doesn't mean that I will always go that fast. I would not ride that fast down a street like Division. Even with a motor it would still take consistent effort to maintain that speed on an ebike.
I think that ebikes are great for assisting those with limited mobility, physical limitation, cargo loads, hauling children or those who live in hilly areas. It could mean someone who might other wise drive, getting on a bike which is a good thing.
I would be annoyed if any used "bumped" me in a bike lane or on a bike path, but is there evidence that this behavior exists among ebike riders any more that this behavior exists among cyclists in general?
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Permalink Reply by A.K.A Paul on
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Liz said:
I havent heard of any evidence that it happens any more on an e-bike than a non powered bike. I probably would be just as annoyed if I were bumped by a cyclelist as well. It sounds like there's a movement afoot to have e-bikes legalized to use bike lanes and bike paths.I would be annoyed if any used "bumped" me in a bike lane or on a bike path, but is there evidence that this behavior exists among ebike riders any more that this behavior exists among cyclists in general?
As well for me, there's a large element of the enjoyment of using a facility that was set asside for non motorized use that is lost by a motorize thing driving up the middle of the path/lane. It doesnt have to touch me, just seeing it using the facility would partially kill my peddling buzz. It happens now when someone double parks in the bike lane or uses it as a passing lane. I'm seeing more scooters and motorcycles using it as a means to get to the front of intersections stopped by a red light. Perhaps I'm getting complacent because it doesnt affect me as much as it used to but it still bothers me when I see it happen.
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Wow, Todd. Way to miss the point. He's saying what is the difference between ebike motorized vehicles and other motorized vehicles in the bike lane, not what is the difference between gas powered and electric.
These things are just another shade of motorized vehicle, and they don't belong in the bike lanes (or the over crowded lake front path either). Allowing these on bike paths opens them up to almost anything electric. You will never be able to enforce speed limits, as cops don't even enforce them on cars (very few cops even have radar in Chicago). There are plenty of options for the disabled (or those with knee aches) other then opening up the one place where bikes can call their own to motorized vehicles.
I would like to hear what Active Trans stands on the issue. I should really hope they are working to ban these motor vehicles from our bike paths and lanes.
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Permalink Reply by BalloonBiker on
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Did you read the same post that I did? I found Todd's post extremely helpful for understanding E-Bikes. Also, having seen and ridden with some of Todd's E-bikes, I have never felt threatened by riding alongside him on bike paths or in bike lanes.
As I understand it, on an E-bike, you have to pedal and provide some of the energy. On a moped, you are sitting still and not contributing. Plus, the electric E-bike is either silent or very quiet. In addition, most ebikes look similar to a bith a larger internal hub, so have similar manueverability and the ability to slip through tighter spaces.
Besides, i do frequently see scooters and even motorcycles in bike lanes now. I don't think they are waiting for "permission."
Jason W said:Wow, Todd. Way to miss the point. He's saying what is the difference between ebike motorized vehicles and other motorized vehicles in the bike lane, not what is the difference between gas powered and electric.
These things are just another shade of motorized vehicle, and they don't belong in the bike lanes (or the over crowded lake front path either). Allowing these on bike paths opens them up to almost anything electric. You will never be able to enforce speed limits, as cops don't even enforce them on cars (very few cops even have radar in Chicago). There are plenty of options for the disabled (or those with knee aches) other then opening up the one place where bikes can call their own to motorized vehicles.
I would like to hear what Active Trans stands on the issue. I should really hope they are working to ban these motor vehicles from our bike paths and lanes.
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Yes, I did read the same post. The one that focuses on the technology of these bikes instead of issues regarding these motorized vehicles in the bike lanes. The post that states he doesn't even "know what they are", meaning you won't be able to categorize or regulate them. If these are allowed in, it will basically be wide open. The only realistic way to keep inappropriate motorized vehicles out of the bike lane is to not allow them at all.
And the motorcycles and scooters are doing something illegal. You know that Jam. Should we not have any laws because a few assholes break them?
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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on
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I have ridden both mopeds and e-bikes of various types all the way down to some older fairly-lame assist models that barely qualify as any assist at all after all the added weight is figured into the equation.
The issue is that while the state of the art is still fairly new (and many electric assist bikes at this time aren't much of a "threat" to non-motorized vehicles) the hand-writing is on the wall.
I remember when battery drills first came on the scene in the construction industry. They were basically no better than a low-powered automatic screwdriver. One would never have thought at that time that eventually an off-the-shelf $99 consumer-grade battery drill could stand shoulder-to-shoulder to a plug in drill with every bit as much power and run for a very long time between charges.
The same will come to pass with e-bikes. I'm not AGAINST ebikes as a mode of transportation. But I am not ignorant to the potential implications of them I'm not for looking the other way and lumping them into the same category of human-powered vehicles. I see where these vehicles are going.
It is a VERY BAD idea to allow them onto the bike paths and bike lanes -just like it would be a bad idea allowing motorized mopeds and motorcycles into them. That's a one-way road to opening up a pandora's box that will be very hard to close again. Today's e-assist bike and the ones we will see commonly in 6-10 years will be as different as those battery drills that I saw 25 years ago compared to those you can buy today. Or to use another analogy look at the bag-phones of the 1980's compared with today's Android or iPhone. Technology of these things is going to advance. They are going to become very popular and they will be EVERYWHERE. People don't like pedaling. They want to hit a button and GO.
In the future these e-bikes will be FAST, and they will be everywhere. Perhaps if they are to be of a type that is to be theoretically allowed on bike paths they might be limited to 20MPH or other lower speeds -but they will still be able to get to that 20MPH in a second or two and with an effortless push of a button or twist of a wrist like a motorcycle. And because it will be effortless the riders WILL drive them to the limit -not have their speed and accelleration tempered by the limits of human muscles and the costs of using them full-out.
Sure there are folks to can ride a human-powered bike REALLY fast and accelerate very quickly. But this is tempered by the experience that was required to get to the point where they can ride that fast. Your garden variety idiot will be slow and lumbering on a bike until they gain the chops -and that point they usually will have also learned a thing or two about what it is to be bicyclist. He didn't just drop down $300 at walmart or best-buy for an electric bike that'll do 20MPH in a second or two of pushing a button to zip up to an effortless 20MPH down the bike path or lane.
Once we let them on the bike paths and the bike lanes we'll never get them off again.
Motorized vehicles don't belong in the bike paths or bike lanes -regardless of how anemic or slow they are unless the rider has some sort of handicapped permit that allows them to ride them because they can't ride a conventional bike -and even then it should be carefully regulated. Otherwise they can ride on the regular lanes with all the other motorized vehicles and stay OUT of the human-powered lanes.
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>Wow, Todd. Way to miss the point. He's saying what is the difference between ebike motorized vehicles and other motorized vehicles in the bike lane, not what is the difference between gas powered and electric.
Perhaps, I missed his point, but I was attempting to clarify one and I clearly failed. Federal law right now says that bicycles equipped with an electric motor of no more than 750 watts that can assist a bicycle to no more than 20 mph are BICYCLES, not motorized vehicles. More restrictive local laws can override this such as in a few places in Colorado, but most places in the US, including Illinois, Cook County and Chicago have not done so. Here's an article which explains it much better than the one linked to at the top of this discussion: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_16211614
Thus most ebikes are LEGAL on the lakefront path, the bike lanes and everywhere else around the city - though they may be prohibited on the CTA. This is the way it's been for at least a decade and as far as I know there is no effort by anyone to change anything.
The law isn't opening up the bike lanes or bike paths to motorized vehicles. Rather it says that ebikes of limited capabilities are not motorized vehicles. Those limits were intentionally chosen to be more restrictive than what strong cyclists are capable of but of sufficient capacity to be genuinely useful and attractive to stimulate innovation.
So perhaps I over reacted when I read several statements by multiple authors such as:
>I think generally that the E-moped is a lamentable development. It should be legislated exactly like its gas powered ancestor.
>AFAIC an electric bike is no different than a motorized motorcycle and shouldn't be in the bike lane.
Perhaps the first statement is intended to only be about bike lanes, but one could also read it literally as I did. The second statement by another author is specifically about bike lanes, but if you accept the premise it has far greater implications.
In Illinois, gas powered mopeds are defined as motor vehicles. They require a driver's license, insurance, plates, etc. There are electric scooters made that fall into this category and they don't sell well. They are expensive and have poor range, the same problems which plague electric cars. Wikipedia has a good article on mopeds and it also touches on the history of how they evolved from bicycles into nopeds.
If the laws are changed to reflect the above sentiment "electric bike = motorcycle", only the worst, least popular forms of electric bikes, ie the electric scooters and light electric motorcycles would survive. The most practical form of electric bikes, regular bicycles with modest power to assist an active rider would be wiped out.
> The one that focuses on the technology of these bikes instead of issues regarding these motorized vehicles in the bike lanes.
I focused on the technology because I was trying to explain the current reality of electric bikes and why the laws are they way they are. It's why ebikes of a certain capability are considered bicycles and not motorized vehicles.
> The post that states he doesn't even "know what they are", meaning you won't be able to categorize or regulate them.
That doesn't mean they can't be categorized but rather they shouldn't be categorized over simplistically like "electric bike is no different than a motorized motorcycle". Motorbikes themselves are placed into 3 categories by the Illinois DMV. Mopeds of very low engine displacement (50 cc?) and power can be ridden with a regular car drivers license. Motor driven cycles up to 150 cc require a class 'L' license and larger motorcycles require a class 'M' license. I expect some day there will be an attempt at equivalencing electric systems to these categories. I think a couple states such as Hawaii and California have already done so, but there is no standardization of categories between states.
I don't know exactly what ebikes are because I'm not entirely certain what bikes are. Due to the fact that there is little regulation of bicycles we have road bikes, mountain bikes, hybrids, fixies, BMX, folding bikes, tandems, recumbents, penny farthings, cargo bikes, rickshaws, tricycles, quadracycles, velomobiles, streamliners, unicycles, tall bikes, choppers, kick bikes, hand cycles, row bikes, Travis's flip bike and my apologies to the countless other flavors I'm overlooking. In some places any of the above can be ridden as a bicycle. In some places many of those are restricted. When you mix that diverse a range of possibilities with a large variety of electric motors and energy storage systems you get a tremendous range of possibilities.
For example there are closed loop electric bikes. The rider pedals a generator and a motor powers the wheel. It is both 100% human powered and motorized at the same time. Put a supercap in between the generator and the motor and a system to regulate the power in and out and the system can store power on a down hill to go up the next hill or just to provide a grand burst of acceleration from the stop at the bottom of the hill. Add a battery and the bike could be ridden at very high speeds under power and still be 100% human powered so long as the power used was only that which was stored while riding slow. Add a solar panel and it is no longer purely human powered but it still is emission free. If one of these passed you on a bike path there would be no way for you to know whether it got power from the solar panel or not, so why should it even matter to you.
There's an old guy, a villainous law breaker, by the name of John Tetz. He's built a prototype of a system that could potentially be very inexpensive and popular with a little refinement. It's a tiny 4 lb system (motor, drivetrain, batteries, etc.) that puts out about 100 watts of power and is almost unnoticeable when it isn't activated.
http://www.recumbents.com/mars/tetz/E-Assist.htm
He uses this on his very efficient streamliner. And for him the small assist is like a way-back machine, that knocks 30 years off his age and lets him ride like he could in his mid 40s. Although the assist is very low powered it is illegal for him to be riding it as a bicycle. It runs through his gearing and it can continue contributing power at any speed he can pedal, ie far in excess of 20 mph.
He's unlikely to be caught, but due to our current laws it is unlikely his system will be commercialized and offered for sale in this country. To be sold it will need the added complication of a limiter circuit that can monitor the bikes speed and cut power to the motor when it reaches 20 mph.
>In the future these e-bikes will be FAST, and they will be everywhere.
...
> but they will still be able to get to that 20MPH in a second or two
Not if they meet the limit of 750 watts max power. A lot of strong riders can produce more power than that. If Lance Armstrong on a 750 watt bike gives it every thing he's got he will accelerate briskly but your average schlub on the ebike won't out accelerate Lance riding an old Schwinn.
Much more powerful ebikes can be built. I made one over 10 years ago. But they are illegal to be ridden or sold as bicycles. They would require meeting certification by the federal DOT and state DMVs to be legal for sale and no manufacturer has shown any interest in pursuing that to start building them commercially. Thus your vision while possible is unlikely to occur without a massive relaxation of current legislation and there is no movement in that direction.
> Once we let them on the bike paths and the bike lanes we'll never get them off again.
You shouldn't say never, but I hope you are right, because that's been the case up to now. They've always been allowed and I hope they always are.
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As someone who is selling these infernal things I can't say I didn't expect this answer
Todd Allen said:You shouldn't say never, but I hope you are right, because that's been the case up to now. They've always been allowed and I hope they always are.
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>As someone who is selling these infernal things I can't say I didn't expect this answer
If you think they are infernal you shouldn't be selling them.
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