Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by S on July 19, 2011 at 3:26am

Juan said:

I drew that picture a few years ago for the Bike Art show.

The system would help to pay for itself by its production of electricity from the solar panel array. Northern states are better at harnessing electrical power from panels due to the cooler climate.

The tunnels would be just for long stretches between cities. I disliked getting chased by dogs, having been shot at and trudging through snow banks. So I imagined this drawing.

Juan, you're incorrect about solar panels paying for the infrastructure.  There wouldn't be enough panels to generate appreciable amounts of energy especially given environmental considerations.  Also, although solar panels lose efficiency with increased temperature, northern climates get much less solar energy (check out the insolation maps at http://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html ).  The net effect is that northern states are not great places for solar arrays.

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Permalink Reply by Jonny Sprockets on July 19, 2011 at 3:28am

It's ironic then that with as much wide open space as America has (or at least, should have in the case of congested cities) we don't have divided lanes for arguably the best mode of transportation. If cities even developed the equivalent of a 2 lane road that was not accessible by cars, was well lit with decent dial-for-help/video surveillance, and had good support from city government, I bet it would get a lot of use.

 

I don't disagree about "walls" per se, but I would see nothing wrong with some level of chain-link fence or something mostly transparent to reduce the risk of anything unnecessary incoming.

 

I'm not sure where other posters live, but I can assure you that riding East on the recommended routes from Forest Park to the Loop for me yield more than a bottle being thrown after 6pm in today's environment for doing the ride. It's such a shame because it is only a 10 mile commute. That is cake, both to-and-from work. Millenium Park even offers great bike storage and showers. And a Pedway connects Millenium park the 1.5 miles I'd walk to get to my office, in air conditioned comfort.

 

I totally understand all of the kumbaya sentiment about "boo gentrification and segregation, let's throw some bones to the broke and make this a feel-good-community all-around". But I have to say, I personally believe there are many pockets around major urban cities that do not want to change and will take generations to shift mindset. And for those reasons, plus the natural reason people move to SUB-urban areas but work in urban, I think local government should get far more involved with creating publicized, protected routes that would cut down emissions, build awareness over ease of alternate transportation options, etc. Arguably even in a city like Chicago a route such as this could be used almost year-round with a small amount of planning and care in design.

 

I think if such routes existed, there are far more human powered transportation options modern engineering could come up with than have even been considered for mass usage (beyond the basic bike).

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Permalink Reply by Duppie on July 19, 2011 at 3:57am

Am I the only one who is amazed at the lack of basic economic knowledge in some these posts?

 

OP stated : “The ROI on something like this was pretty good these days”.

The ROI will be indefinite, unless you would a) start charging for use of the tunnel, or b) the tunnel would create such a shift in mode share of transportation that we could save money by reduced road maintenance cost.

 

Juan stated:  “The system would help to pay for itself by its production of electricity from the solar panel array.”

3 years ago I looked at installing solar panels on the roof of our condo building. Total cost after tax credits, etc. was about $30K. The panels are expected to last about 30 years. ROI was estimated to about 18 years. This means that after 18 years you had finally saved enough money to cover the $30K. This means that you have 12 years left to pay for the tunnels that you build. Given the cost of building tunnels (we’re likely talking billions of dollars here), you have to install an incredibly large number of solar panels to make it work economically.

And let’s not forget about the fact that in Illinois by law you cannot sell the surplus of electricity to you local electricity provider. So you would have to find a use for it that displaces conventional energy you already are buying (otherwise there would be zero actual savings)

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Permalink Reply by Jonny Sprockets on July 19, 2011 at 5:08am

I think you're looking at this wrong Duppie. That was a blanket statement to say that there is a blend of progressive enhancements to existing roadways (or paths, e.g. Prairie Path), tax breaks based on commuter activity, reduction in emissions and city-wide awareness building, increase in public health, reduction of wear to existing roads, change in CTA ridership, nation-wide image and tourism from radical commitment to human-powered transportation (the #1 industry in Chicago is tourism you should know), better access to our fabulous lakeshore in the most eco-friendly way possible thereby boosting revenue to locations which aren't as readily vehicle accessible, that all have to be considered.

 

Since we opened with tunnels which were already stated as a 'pipe dream' and shooting for the moon, I think some folks have lost the core question here. There are other parts of the world doing better than Chicago, so what can be done to optimize this great city's ridership and the perception of suburban-to-urban human-powered commuting that can be accomplished ANYWHERE.

 

Dallas has the Katy trail for example, and ample public safety programs to compliment it. http://www.katytraildallas.org or http://www.happytrailsdallas.com You can actually ride from suburban areas into Dallas on green, paved trails protected through both public policy and tactical amenities like video and dial-security/police booths.

 

I truly don't think folks are seeing this the right way if the answer remains "paint a bike lane on a too-crowded-already road like Washington or Augusta and be done with it".

 

I am amazed at the lack of basic public-benefiting vision in some of these responses ;)

Duppie said:

Am I the only one who is amazed at the lack of basic economic knowledge in some these posts?

 

OP stated : “The ROI on something like this was pretty good these days”.

The ROI will be indefinite, unless you would a) start charging for use of the tunnel, or b) the tunnel would create such a shift in mode share of transportation that we could save money by reduced road maintenance cost.

 

Juan stated:  “The system would help to pay for itself by its production of electricity from the solar panel array.”

3 years ago I looked at installing solar panels on the roof of our condo building. Total cost after tax credits, etc. was about $30K. The panels are expected to last about 30 years. ROI was estimated to about 18 years. This means that after 18 years you had finally saved enough money to cover the $30K. This means that you have 12 years left to pay for the tunnels that you build. Given the cost of building tunnels (we’re likely talking billions of dollars here), you have to install an incredibly large number of solar panels to make it work economically.

And let’s not forget about the fact that in Illinois by law you cannot sell the surplus of electricity to you local electricity provider. So you would have to find a use for it that displaces conventional energy you already are buying (otherwise there would be zero actual savings)

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Permalink Reply by Jonny Sprockets on July 19, 2011 at 9:39am

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/September-2009/A-Mugging...

 

“Riding on the West Side?” he asked, his eyebrows skyward, implying that any sane person would know better.

 

Ah, the joys of life in the islands.

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Permalink Reply by Juan 2-3 or more mi. on July 20, 2011 at 4:30am

I still think we should build some sort of bicycle highway system...

Here is a more detailed critique of this particular transportation idea. http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/facil/biketrans.htm

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Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on July 20, 2011 at 4:50am

Quite right - although I think the tourism potential of a bike path crossing over a moat full of these laser-beam shooting sharks would be astounding!

Cameron Puetz said:

The West Side is a group of neighborhoods full of people, some of whom may be troubled. It’s not a moat full of sharks with lazar beams that we must built an armored passage over.

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Permalink Reply by Gort 12-mile Pinklegneep on July 20, 2011 at 7:02am

I ride through Austin into the loop in the morning and it kind of puts me off when people talk about poorer neighborhoods like biking black holes because it turns out there are actually a whole lot of people on bikes there, but they don't get the acknowledgement because their reasons for riding a bike aren't so yuppie virtuous. And yeah the thought of tunnels to avoid the poor kind of exacerbates that feeling. Not that it'd be effective anyway, I know some people who have been jumped in the underpasses by the lake.

Serge Lubomudrov said:

I'd rather prefer the elimination of "bad (statistically high crime) areas," and not by deporting the poor somewhere else, but by reducing the gap between the haves and have-nots. Such "tunnels" would be just a variety of gated communities or building walls around favelas.

A pipe dream, I know . . .

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Permalink Reply by Jonny Sprockets on July 20, 2011 at 4:29pm

This is very true. This type of system could absolutely and SHOULD absolutely have access for all neighborhoods along the way. Regardless of the neighborhood it would be nice if there was a no-cars/barrier to the path. Adding some level of security like callboxes and video, plus great lighting at night would be good too.

 

I think the Bloomindale Trail mentioned above is about as good a plan as any I've heard. The elevation of it with somewhat controlled access points would be good.

 

Now if this would just actually happen... and extend far enough to hit some of the farther West places like Forest Park...

Peenworm Grubologist said:

I ride through Austin into the loop in the morning and it kind of puts me off when people talk about poorer neighborhoods like biking black holes because it turns out there are actually a whole lot of people on bikes there, but they don't get the acknowledgement because their reasons for riding a bike aren't so yuppie virtuous. And yeah the thought of tunnels to avoid the poor kind of exacerbates that feeling. Not that it'd be effective anyway, I know some people who have been jumped in the underpasses by the lake.

Serge Lubomudrov said:

I'd rather prefer the elimination of "bad (statistically high crime) areas," and not by deporting the poor somewhere else, but by reducing the gap between the haves and have-nots. Such "tunnels" would be just a variety of gated communities or building walls around favelas.

A pipe dream, I know . . .

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Permalink Reply by Adam "Cezar" Jenkins on July 21, 2011 at 2:08am

Try asking Google how to get from downtown to my suburb (Mokena). In that direction it takes you through Englewood. I'll do it in the early mornings, but not other times.

 

The fix is to bring those areas of the city up, not separate. There are desolate areas of the south side that could make wonderful sustainable developments if the areas they are in were safer.

 

I'm a big fan of building police stations in the center of crime areas.

 

Sadly there is little a municipal government can do for the poor in comparison to the nation as a whole.

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Permalink Reply by Alyson Fletcher on July 21, 2011 at 5:36am

I ride either the North Shore Channel trail or the Lakefront home to Evanston every day, and I sometimes to the extra miles to do the lakefront pending where I am because it feels safer to me. There are some parts on the North Shore that could really use some better lighting!

And to throw in my two cents on tunnels: my vote is nay. I think cyclists should engage with the street life and be visibile - it's like a daily activist parade and adventure just riding down the street. Tunnels are dark and scary and leaky and out of sight from daily life - who would ever clean them!?

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Permalink Reply by Jonny Sprockets on July 22, 2011 at 3:31am

Nobody wants to pedal in a dungeon. Ugh. Agreed.

 

Juan's "tunnel" depictions are interesting because the concept there is something elevated, bright, and accessible by all. All "tunnel" means is some level of enclosure to protect from some elements if possible. Also, and I am not sure of the credibility, but the reported energy cost for adding a significant wind-powered aspect to this type of enclosure is 65 kW/km which is really nothing (100hp), yet yields a 90% increase in efficiency to riders (congestion impact TBD).

 

http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/facil/biketrans.htm

http://www.biketrans.com/index.html

 

I still believe that is a pipe dream in the short term, but I do believe that the concept and vision is highly noble. If we can power 1km of tunnel with less energy than a small car but propel countless willing bicyclists on their daily commute, there will (in the future) be some variant of this that makes sense.

 

I guess this isn't entirely a bicycle discussion. Decisions like this across the board will ultimately transform or condemn mankind. Conserved resources and related benefit could then be applied to transform impoverished communities one step at a time. Maybe smarter urban planning like this would serve as a way to improve physical access to quality education, healthcare, and food (food deserts in Chicago, anyone?).

 

Anyhow, I enjoy the visionary aspect of this discussion blended with reality like the Bloomingdale Trail (very exciting concept). What other realistic concepts exist like this in Chicagoland all?

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