Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David P. on July 1, 2012 at 1:24am

Jim,

This may have something to do with being male! :) My girlfriend also lives in Andersonville and rides a lot, and gets catcalled regularly in all sorts of places - Avondale (where I live), Albany Park, Andersonville, Wrigleyville, and so on and on. 

David

Jim S said:

I understand that you need to get your point across, but my eyes squinted in disbelief a little bit. As a resident of Andersonville, I ride Uptown and Rogers Park a whole lot, and would have to say that I've never had trouble at any hour of the day or night. I have ZERO reason to ride in Englewood, but I'd hazard a wild guess that it's probably a lot more treacherous than RP/Uptown.
 
Charlie Short said:

I will take Garfield Blvd over Clark and Addison every day of the week and twice on Sunday. And I think you get just as much catcalling in Uptown and Rogers Park as you do on the West Side.

Anne Alt said:

This is why I often find riding Halsted through Lincoln Park and Boystown much more stressful than riding Vincennes or Cottage Grove - prevalence of the "entitlement mentality" vs. a distinct lack thereof.

MagMileMarauder said:

From experience, I find around  90% of Audis, BMW's and Porsches; people updating the Facebook status, taxis, and doors in the "safe" parts of town more threatening than any potential attack from a thug in the rough parts of town.

Permalink Reply by Mike Zumwalt on July 1, 2012 at 7:29am

I'm in agreement w/magmile marauder. Having been "jacked" for my bike and nearly hit by a Beemer no where is safe.

Permalink Reply by Vilda on July 1, 2012 at 10:12am

I'm loving how many people LOVE this thread. We have gotten away from arguing with me which is disappointing but DAMN this is good drama! :-)

Permalink Reply by Vilda on July 1, 2012 at 10:31am

Riding the wrong Gabe is really a shame. ;-)

Permalink Reply by Pat on July 1, 2012 at 12:08pm

After reading this entire post I realized that no one from the Westside has commented on what Gabe said. From living on this side my whole life, I can honestly say that it's the truth. I can't even understand why someone would even want to drive their car let along ride their bike down Lake street. It's dark and gloomy and just has too many places for someone to jump out and jack you. But I guess I think like that because I was born and raised over here and you have to think defense at all times. Take it from someone that lives in the middle of the hell whole, don't take Lake to Oak Park. If you call the police they take their time to get there because they really don't know what they are getting into. The police station was on 4 blocks from where this poor guy was attacked and it took them 10 mins to get there. That's a sign people. 

Permalink Reply by Vilda on July 1, 2012 at 12:11pm

Love ya Pat! Welcome to the biking community! :)

Permalink Reply by Trachea on July 6, 2012 at 11:39am

I used to ride on Lake and Augusta. I figured the cops weren't likely to show up quick/at all if I got jacked or hit. I had to admit I was taking a big risk in riding thru the west side; I could not expect the cops to rescue me if something happened. 

Pat said:

After reading this entire post I realized that no one from the Westside has commented on what Gabe said. From living on this side my whole life, I can honestly say that it's the truth. I can't even understand why someone would even want to drive their car let along ride their bike down Lake street. It's dark and gloomy and just has too many places for someone to jump out and jack you. But I guess I think like that because I was born and raised over here and you have to think defense at all times. Take it from someone that lives in the middle of the hell whole, don't take Lake to Oak Park. If you call the police they take their time to get there because they really don't know what they are getting into. The police station was on 4 blocks from where this poor guy was attacked and it took them 10 mins to get there. That's a sign people. 

Permalink Reply by O on July 17, 2012 at 4:07am

Corey Brooks is a pastor from the Inner City of Chicago. Rather than spending a good deal of his life on forums like this he has chosen to do something positive.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/15/rev-corey-brooks-rooftop-_...

Assigning labels to entire regions of the country, state or city based upon your limited experiences is regrettable. Spending so much time on swearing at one another and the usual "put down antics" some prevalent among those who feel a strong sense of entitlement is what makes this thread seem sorely in need of something real to talk about.

Rather than spending so much time churning around the North Side of Chicago during Critical Mass rides, why not come on down to the South Side or better yet ride the West Side en masse. Find a pastor whose church could be a stop on your journey and listen carefully and decide whether there is anything you can do to help.

But if you feel like telling him and his parishioners that they live in a "shithole" fine. You will have at least said it to the faces of those who matter.

Pat said:

After reading this entire post I realized that no one from the Westside has commented on what Gabe said. From living on this side my whole life, I can honestly say that it's the truth. I can't even understand why someone would even want to drive their car let along ride their bike down Lake street. It's dark and gloomy and just has too many places for someone to jump out and jack you. But I guess I think like that because I was born and raised over here and you have to think defense at all times. Take it from someone that lives in the middle of the hell whole, don't take Lake to Oak Park. If you call the police they take their time to get there because they really don't know what they are getting into. The police station was on 4 blocks from where this poor guy was attacked and it took them 10 mins to get there. That's a sign people. 

Permalink Reply by Joe Schmoe on July 17, 2012 at 5:02am

O, if you're from the neighborhood (like Pat is), I think you have license to give your honest opinion on cycling in the area.  My impression is that on the Northside, you're more likely to get run over or hit by an oblivious driver as the streets are more congested, and there are more people and cars.  On the South and West sides, you're more likely to get accosted by ne'er-do-wells, as there is more poverty and as a consequence, more crime.  The former is clearly more likely wherever you ride.  

Corey Brooks is awesome, for sure, but many of us volunteer in our own communities, or nearby communities, and pointing out problems for ourselves as a group (cyclists) with a certain part of town is not the equivalent of painting every person in those areas of town as less than human.  I can do good for people less fortunate than myself, and still alert others to the fact that if you bike down Lake at night, someone might assault you. The same goes for much of the south end of the LFP at night (and certainly some of the north end of it, to be fair).  I will also warn people of dangerous areas of the North Side, and bad intersections/stretches of road all over town.  

I understand and accept that I might be hurt by a car, ped, or other cyclists on my rides (or f*****g pothole, which was my first crash in 4 years last August). I also could get mugged, particularly by myself at night. I try to stay away from cars as much as possible to avoid the former, and I avoid higher-crime neighborhoods at night to avoid the latter.  

Permalink Reply by Gail Garcia on July 17, 2012 at 6:08am

Really elegantly said, Daniel G. Thank you. I completely agree.

 

Gail

Daniel G said:

If you let ghettoes form, don't be shocked when people get territorial about their shitholes. It's all they have. Just another hazard I don't dwell on. If I let myself become preoccupied with whether cycling was "safe" on Diversey or Clark or Lincoln, I probably would stop riding in Chicago altogether. We are all basically activists treading a new trail and it is not safe. People get drunk and violent past 6pm, so ride fast. Segregation by race and income is a costly, bloody project, and we don't get to cross between the good and bad sides of the tracks for free. Maintaining a presence there is very important and positive though, and the westsidecommuters should consider sending a rep to a neighborhood association meeting on the west side once in a while. Bicyclists are uniquely invested in the conditions of a neighborhood and its streets in a way that other road users aren't, and nearly all west side residents will respect and acknowledge this.

Ride in groups, ride with mace, or take Armitage and just ride all the way around. Most parts of the west side are lovely at 7am, when I ride through. No parts are lovely for cyclists at 7pm.

Permalink Reply by O on July 17, 2012 at 9:33am

In the thread http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/anyone-else-planning-on-au... the subject of our cities overall reputation for violence came up.

Dr. Doom asked about my reasoning when making the case that Chicago is fast becoming the Murder Capital of the Midwest in the eyes of many outside the city. After all if you don't live here or have much intimate knowledge about the city it is all one dangerous mass to you. But I think this thread apparently exposed a raw nerve where our cities reputation is concerned.

It puts the lie to the notion that you can point out inadequacies in the safety of an area without tarnishing the reputation of its denizens...

O, can you explain this Murder Capital of the Midwest talking point? The FBI reports that there were 430 murders in Chicago last year, 344 in Detroit and 113 in St. Louis. If Chicago were as kill-happy as Detroit there would have been over 1,300 murders here last year. Chicago has lots of murders because it's really, really big, not because it's particularly unsafe (especially if you don't live in a dangerous neighborhood. -- Dr. Doom

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/prelimin...

I replied as follows:

This article which is covering the current years data might shed some light:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/16/chicago-homicide-rate-wor_...

S replied as follows:

Wow, you can not be serious.  I think Tim is right and you're just trolling now.  Your first hint that the article is bogus is that there isn't any byline so no one seems to be willing to take responsibility for the contents of the article.  First, comparing the number of homicides in chicago to the number of soldiers killed in Kabul has no meaning.  Last I checked there isn't any active insurgency in Chicago trying to kill foreign military forces so the situations aren't remotely comparable.  The article doesn't even bother to look at civilian deaths in Kabul or look at populations in Kabul or Chicago to determine per capita rates.  Second, talking about how 100-200 police officers were used to secure a wedding doesn't mean much when one of the attendees is the president of the US and his family.  He could be in a relatively isolated and secure facility like Camp David and his security detail would still be 100-200 or more.

Marcus then followed in this fashion:

Sigh. Let's break down the stats offered by that fine piece of Huff Po journalism...

144 of the 63,500 US soldiers stationed in Afghanistan were killed so far this year (2.267 deaths per 1000).

228 of the 2.7 million Chicago residents were killed so far this year (0.084 deaths per 1000).

Thus, US troops in Afghanistan are killed at a rate over 26.8 times greater than that at which Chicagoans are killed.

I call shitty, inflammatory journalism.

I replied with even more examples of the kind of bad press the city is getting:

You may wish to criticize Huff Po but this is the gist of what the folks outside the city are reading. The story was big enough that it made a few other outlets:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/26/us-usa-crime-chicago-idUS...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47778690/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/...

http://www.wlfi.com/dpps/news/national/midwest/chicago-homicides-up...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markbergen/2012/06/26/chicago-summer-cr...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06-14/news/ct-edit-crime-06...

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/06/chicagos-grim-38-mu...

http://thegrio.com/2012/06/12/fractured-gangs-blamed-for-chicago-ho...

http://www.thedaily.com/page/2012/06/15/061512-news-chicago-murders...

http://source.southuniversity.edu/as-weather-warms-up-so-do-opportu...

Clearly if there is fear monger activity going on it is not by me. Unless of course I am more powerful than Rupert Murdoch and have the power to change the minds of reporters from far flung reaches. What is surprising is that these articles about the city never reached this forum. Either you read some of these and decided to ignore them or what would be worse is that you didn't and were arguing about my characterization of the city as the current Murder Capital of the Midwest out of ignorance.

Either way the genie is out of the bottle for folks who want to come to Chicago. I believe that the two physicians attacked on the Northside a few weeks ago were from China or some other Asian country. That probably got lots of coverage back home and a further black eye for the city.

Every time a forum like this pushes responsibility for something like "flash mob" activity or the supposed vandalization of the brush just south of the new 31st Street Harbor onto the backs of "urban youth" that is in my mind trolling. The burn appears (I went an saw it for myself) to have been a controlled burn. But the original poster let the story drop and never reported back.

Chicago's reputation is fragile with a lot of visitors. The very last thing anyone should be doing is making them feel unwelcome by lambasting the choices they have made in spending money with us in activities like the L.A.T.E. Ride.

You can try and silence me but you cannot unring the bell where media coverage is concerned. Keep in mind that the citations above are only for online printed outlets. This story about Chicago's murder rate for this year was widely covered on the air in both radio and television markets.

I note that there is a very different response on the part of folks who live in more "entitled" areas when they are getting lumped in with the rest of the city. Spencer "Thunderball" Thayer then came in over the top with this gem:

Dearest O, shut up.

Maybe if you demonstrated any sense of restraint we could have a reasonable conversation, but you blew that several rants ago. I understand that you have a concern that our little bike gang threatens everything you hold dear. Yet we do not respect your opinion enough to ever read your inane prattling. So why are you bothering? Perhaps, simply, you are a Troll.

Not a single person attending our fun little event could care less how our actions impact the ATA, FOTP or the Chicago Office of Tourism and Culture markets. Why?

Because A) it's not our responsibility, B) many of us don't like tourists and C) only an insane person would think that 20 to 30 people riding around at night could destroy Chicago's image.

Even though you have ruined this topic by acting like a troll I must still thank you. By pissing everyone who read this topic off you have ensured that we will have more people attend the event simply so that we can collectively laugh at you while drinking at the bar.

Cordially in your face-
but still cordially,

Spencer "Thunderball" Thayer!

He even managed to include a graphic of himself as a Counter Troll (evidently my mentioning the problem of our city's violence is considered trolling).

I think a few points have to be made here:

• If you think that the use of terms like "shit hole" in describing entire sections of the city is not racist or at the very least demeaning to the people who live there, then I suppose you would find the reactions of the thread participants above a bit curious.
• If the ChainLink is to be a true representation of the Chicago Cycling Community then it needs to serve as more than a sounding board for intolerant bigots, cop haters, anarchists and folks who are generally not involved in making the city a better place in "real terms".
• Because this is my city (I was born and raised here but live in the suburbs now visiting each weekend because virtually ALL of my family still live in the city limits) I am ashamed at some of the callousness that parades as intellectual discussion. It makes me wonder why such a power vehicle as this forum has to be used for such infantile purposes.
• People all over the globe who happen to be visiting this site are for better or worse gaining perhaps their only impressions of the city by virtue of the conversations we are holding here on a daily basis. That fact alone should make us a bit more circumspect when we try to speak "openly".
• But more to the point when folks try to "pushback" as some did in this thread on the raw bigotry and racist tendencies of a few the "Lord of the Flies" effect takes hold. People fall to character assassination and ridicule to somehow defend themselves or deflect criticisms.

I for one am not going to buy your explanation as stated below. I have lived far too long to let someone try to whitewash what is obviously at times a cesspool of critical thought. I only hope that the nightly news takes the time to air some of the raw verbiage present on these forums and includes the names of the thread responders.

Joe Schmoe said:

Corey Brooks is awesome, for sure, but many of us volunteer in our own communities, or nearby communities, and pointing out problems for ourselves as a group (cyclists) with a certain part of town is not the equivalent of painting every person in those areas of town as less than human.  I can do good for people less fortunate than myself, and still alert others to the fact that if you bike down Lake at night, someone might assault you. The same goes for much of the south end of the LFP at night (and certainly some of the north end of it, to be fair).  I will also warn people of dangerous areas of the North Side, and bad intersections/stretches of road all over town.  

Permalink Reply by Tim S on July 17, 2012 at 9:59am

Had a project in Oak Park running for over a month and Lake Street never treated me bad, aside from some bad parking jobs when the Bike Lane was installed.

Chicago... yeah, lil freaked out riding that stretch. Found Agusta to be OK till a woman decided that her mini van turning left had ROW over me riding along east bound.

Sad that there seems to be a rise in attacks on cyclists. 

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