Road Clash - Cyclists & Drivers

There's a lot being written about the rise in cycling in the U.S. and, consequently, also a lot written about the clash between cyclists and drivers. Amanda sent me this article from the New York Times about the rise of road rage aimed at bikers. One of the people quoted summed it up by saying, “We’ve had a car culture for so long and suddenly the roads become saturated with bicyclists trying to save gas,” Mr. Cooley said 10 days after the attack, still feeling scrambled, in pain and traumatized. “No one knows how to share the road.”

Even though Chicago's a pretty bike-friendly city, there are those people who are downright mean. One time I was riding down Halsted with a guy who, every time I caught up to him at a light, kept yelling at me, "Out of my way! Stay on the sidewalk!" (which is illegal). And even worse, riding in a car with a few people, one of whom joked to the driver, "Ten points if you hit a biker." I got off easy compared to some of the stories in the article, but I'm sure there are worse examples from around here.

What about you guys. Do any of you have stories of drivers behaving badly?

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Permalink Reply by Duppie on July 8, 2009 at 2:19am
Ryan LaGasse said:
I was riding south on Damen, like I do a lot, when I eventually came upon the intersection of Damen/Berteau. Now, Berteau is a one-way street going West. I know this route well and I know which streets go which-way. I looked right to make sure no dumb-asses were traveling in the wrong direction which is when I immediately looked left to see a Black 99ish BMW on the East side of Berteau. I slowed down enough to tell his left turn signal was on and after watching the car start to turn onto Damen, I sped up through the intersection no different than any other day. Now the danger in this plan is that yes, the car could have changed its mind and gone straight instead but it had already started to turn enough that a correction of that magnitude would simply be disastrous for the driver, so you can only trust they won’t freak-out and do something against the grain.
As I rode through the intersection the BMW suddenly revved its engine and changed its course[...]

You conveniently forget to mention in the beginning that it was you who rode through the red light. It's a little disingenuous to willfully ignore the traffic laws and then complain here that you get in trouble for it. Had you stopped for the red light, the whole situation likely wouldn't have happened.

And yes, I think Cougar is a dangerous driver who should be kept off the road.
Duppie
Permalink Reply by Chris on July 8, 2009 at 5:43am
Okay, look. We all do this as drivers and as cyclists-- as a driver we pull a rolling stop at a 4 way or turn right on red trying to beat pedestrians. As cyclist we blow through reds if there's noone there etc etc.

So I do think (unless you're committed to claiming "I NEVER EVER EVER break rules") as cyclists we sometimes need to dial it down a notch in terms of righteous indignation at drivers.

That having been said there is simply no excuse for cougar's behavior. What he did was called assault with a deadly weapon (I'm not kidding.) Nobody else can "start" an incident like that. he decided not to just ignore a traffic rule, or act erratically, but to willfully try to hurt or maim someone with his car. THERE IS NO EXCUSE AND NO JUSTIFICATION for this.

Whenever you see or experience something like this, get the PLATES and call the cops. A disturbing trend I am seeing in this thread is people directly interact with these assholes. why? Just call the cops get the plates and report them. That way there's more credibility to your side of the story in the you v them police incident.

Oh and ALWAYS get plates and report this shit. there have been several cases where motorists have killed cyclists but it has been written off as "accidental" until later reports of aggressive driving behavior towards cyclists (from cyclists that call in and report) allows police to pursue homicide/manslaughter charges.

glad noone was seriously hurt in the cougar incident. scary shit.

Duppie said:
Ryan LaGasse said:
I was riding south on Damen, like I do a lot, when I eventually came upon the intersection of Damen/Berteau. Now, Berteau is a one-way street going West. I know this route well and I know which streets go which-way. I looked right to make sure no dumb-asses were traveling in the wrong direction which is when I immediately looked left to see a Black 99ish BMW on the East side of Berteau. I slowed down enough to tell his left turn signal was on and after watching the car start to turn onto Damen, I sped up through the intersection no different than any other day. Now the danger in this plan is that yes, the car could have changed its mind and gone straight instead but it had already started to turn enough that a correction of that magnitude would simply be disastrous for the driver, so you can only trust they won’t freak-out and do something against the grain.
As I rode through the intersection the BMW suddenly revved its engine and changed its course[...]

You conveniently forget to mention in the beginning that it was you who rode through the red light. It's a little disingenuous to willfully ignore the traffic laws and then complain here that you get in trouble for it. Had you stopped for the red light, the whole situation likely wouldn't have happened.

And yes, I think Cougar is a dangerous driver who should be kept off the road.
Duppie
Permalink Reply by Duppie on July 8, 2009 at 7:46am
I think you make some excellent points. And let me be clear. Cougar’s behavior is unacceptable and reprehensible.
Having said that, in this thread and on other forums on the interwebs I regularly read about altercations between drivers and cyclists. While there are no doubt drivers with bad intent -and I might just be the one to run into one such driver- I generally do not recognize myself in these situations. In my two and a half years of daily commutes in Chicago (21 mile RT) I have only once had anything worse than honking happen to me. That was my neighbor who came barreling down the alley in his car at a high speed and I called him on that (maybe someday I will describe the situation in a post). Other than that: no verbal abuse, no assault, no accidents, nothing. I wonder why that is. The only plausible reason that I can come up with, besides dumb luck, is that I attempt to ride safely and defensively. Riding safely and defensively does not mean that I do not break rules or laws, but that I try to avoid the biggest risks.

And that is what strikes me about a lot of these posts, and is observed in real life: It appears to me that a lot of cyclists assume the laws that are on the books will protect them from harm (hey! The guy was not supposed to make an illegal U-turn!) and do little if nothing to protect themselves on top of the basic laws, and regularly ignore even those basic rules of the road. A few posts back somebody mentioned getting doored. Yes, the driver is legally at fault in Chicago, but I wonder if poster could have done anything to avoid that situation in the first place. (While I do not know whether there was anything she could have done, my personal solution is to always attempt to ride out of the door zone. If I cannot do that due to road design or heavy traffic, I will slow down and avoid that route next time). The story about Cougar is another one. Yes, the drive should lose his license, but I wonder if poster could have done anything to avoid this situation.(My personal solution has been previously recorded)

This is not limited to cyclists. In the end everone (driver, pedestrian, cyclist) has to make their own judgment call about what is safe and defensive traffic participation. And yes, different people will come to different conclusions as to what safety means to them. However, from my personal observation a lot of traffic participants (in all categories) ignore every basic safety concept and then feign outrage when somebody calls them on it (legally or not). And that sounds hypocritical to me.



Chris said:
Okay, look. We all do this as drivers and as cyclists-- as a driver we pull a rolling stop at a 4 way or turn right on red trying to beat pedestrians. As cyclist we blow through reds if there's noone there etc etc.
So I do think (unless you're committed to claiming "I NEVER EVER EVER break rules") as cyclists we sometimes need to dial it down a notch in terms of righteous indignation at drivers. That having been said there is simply no excuse for cougar's behavior. What he did was called assault with a deadly weapon (I'm not kidding.) Nobody else can "start" an incident like that. he decided not to just ignore a traffic rule, or act erratically, but to willfully try to hurt or maim someone with his car. THERE IS NO EXCUSE AND NO JUSTIFICATION for this. Whenever you see or experience something like this, get the PLATES and call the cops. A disturbing trend I am seeing in this thread is people directly interact with these assholes. why? Just call the cops get the plates and report them. That way there's more credibility to your side of the story in the you v them police incident.
Oh and ALWAYS get plates and report this shit. there have been several cases where motorists have killed cyclists but it has been written off as "accidental" until later reports of aggressive driving behavior towards cyclists (from cyclists that call in and report) allows police to pursue homicide/manslaughter charges.

glad noone was seriously hurt in the cougar incident. scary shit.

Permalink Reply by Ryan L on July 8, 2009 at 8:36am
I apologize in advance for my long post. I was on the most boring conference call that had nothing to do with me so I wrote this out in my boredom.

Duppie said:
You conveniently forget to mention in the beginning that it was you who rode through the red light. It's a little disingenuous to willfully ignore the traffic laws and then complain here that you get in trouble for it. Had you stopped for the red light, the whole situation likely wouldn't have happened. And yes, I think Cougar is a dangerous driver who should be kept off the road. Duppie

I mentioned I went through the light, but only after I had slowed down so much that I was able to see the south part of the car and its turn signal, then watched the car start to turn which was when I then crossed the street and sped up through the one-way intersection. I in no way impeded this cars ability to make a safe turn onto Damen and go about its business. I had my own bike lane and I remained in that lane. He had to know I was there before he, and I, went through the intersection. If he did not it is his fault for not paying as much attention to me as I was to him and that is the problem most of the time with drivers, they daydream, then get startled when all of a sudden a bike is near them and they freak out and don't know how to react usually doing something rash out of confusion which quickly turns to anger. You can't really daydream so much on a bike because you will end up splattered on the ground for sure. How many times in a car do you have to turn onto a street with 2 lanes and one of those lanes has moving traffic. You have to constantly watch the traffic in the other lane as you turn. This situation should have been treated as such, I stay in my lane and he stays in his. He purposely went out of his way to cross over into my lane of traffic and cut me off worse, trying to hit me. He would never have done that to another car, or maybe he would, who knows.

I treat every intersection in the city differently. A 4-way stop at Wolcott/Barry is different than a 4-way stop at Wolcott/Belmont. Some intersections are insanely busy all the time. Some are barren wastelands all the time. All 6-way intersections like Clybourn/Damen/Diversey are too dangerous to go through on red so unless it is at night and there is a huge break in the traffic. I slow down and stay put till it turns green.

One issue is that cars break the law all the time and cyclists have to adjust his/her path on several occasions to remain as safe as possible. Ex: Being at an intersection with three lanes, one turning left, one going straight, and one turning right, then add no bike lane to the equation. Now if a car in the right lane decides to go straight through the intersection instead of turning right, that is illegal. So if a car in the right lane does not have its right turn signal on I have to assume it is going to illegally bolt on through the intersection. So what am I to do? Do I go on its right just in case or do I go on its left to avoid the possibility of it going right even though its turn signal does not suggest such.

So this is my beef with cars. Drivers simply do not use their turn signals, which is like 90% of all cars on the road in this city. They give us no choice but to guess what they are going to do which puts us in constant danger. When they do use their signals I have to trust they intend to carry out the intentions of said signal. That is what it is for, to alert the public of its intentions. Mr. Cougars actions told me he was turning, he turned, I aknowleged that turn, I moved on in my own lane with much less force than that car was carrying. There was no excuse for his actions, period. I did not come barreling through like I had a green.

I got into a long discussion with my fiancé last night about the incident and she, not someone who rides a bike but drives a car all the time, pointed out an interesting dilemma between cars, bikes and pedestrians. Is it illegal for someone to cross the street when it’s red yet how many people do just that, EVRYONE; you have to if you want to get where you are going. That is the number one reason cyclists treat intersections they way we do. We have both the mindset of a driver and that of pedestrian/jogger at the same time. Sometimes we act more like a car; sometimes we act like a person, or jogger, crossing the street on a red. I could get off my bike and walk it across the street than get back on and ride off but that would be downright silly. You can’t get out of a car, push it across the street on red and get back in to drive off. If you are in a car there are rules that absolutely can’t be broken at any time never, ever, ever, and when they are people get hurt or worse killed.

When I’m on a bike I can’t predict when someone is going to change their mind and make a bad decision like opening a door before looking for bikes and other cars, or a car driving on the bike lane to avoid a giant pothole, or a car missing a stop sign because the driver was changing a CD and missed it. Drivers are lazy in nature, it takes 0 effort to press on the gas pedal and send a 2-ton piece of metal into flight. Drivers on the phone, drivers changing a CD, drivers yelling at their kids to shut the fuck up while daddy is driving, the distractions go on and on. With a bike you pay attention to what is ahead of you, what is behind you, what is around you, at all times no exceptions. There is no changing CD’s, there is no yelling at the kids in the back seat, there is not the possibility of spilling a large coffee on your lap. Now, if you are on the phone while riding your bike you are an idiot, period. So a rider is constantly aware at all times by the simple manner of his/her mode of travel and the desire to stay alive. In a car however you have multiple situations that take your eyes off the road. Then throw in being on the phone and not properly using the turn signals. That is why someone on a bicycle makes a decision like going through a light, because that is all we have to deal with. Getting from point A to B without hitting anything or being hit.

If drivers paid as much attention to their surroundings as those on bicycles, we would have far less incidents and the relationship between car and bike would be much more peaceful.

And finally, there is one last phenomenon I have experienced through the years of riding in this city. Many drivers would prefer a bicycle ride through an intersection before they step on the gas and drive off. How many times have you been on your bike and come up to a 4-way stop expecting the cars to go and instead they wait till you go instead? It happens to me all the time. I would say about 80% of the time, as I slow down towards an intersection, the cars will sit there till I go through. The problem with this is that some drivers are the opposite and it can be confusing to the rider and other cars. You just never know which drivers want you to go and which ones want to go first. I am pretty sure there is no section of the IL driving manual that has a diagram of an intersection with 4 cars and some bikes. Everyone has had to make up their own rules as they go. Then there are those drivers who hesitate. They go, stop, go, stop, WTF ARE THEY DOING. Either go or stop and make the decision to do so quickly. Many times accidents happen because people take too long to decide what to do and they get confused making the wring choice out of panic. Drives me f-ing crazy. So sometimes you just have to ride on through, because they have no idea what they are doing. It makes me sad.

All of that being said, I strongly believe it is also the responsibility of the cyclist to be as safe as possible and try the best he/she can not to put others in harms way. Unfortunately the randomness of the world and its inhabitants is an unpredictable beast that is ever changing and in constant motion. Life is dangerous, period! Be safe out there.

Ryan L.
Permalink Reply by Vilda on July 8, 2009 at 9:45am
He gave it Long and Slow...So Good! ;-) I got doored at Southport and Diversey. The Lady was parked in half a lane of space that becomes the bike lane 10 feet up. There was a car in the left turn lane going the other way so I rode exactly where there was space. I could have not ridden on Southport but that seems silly.

As for ALWAYS call the cops and ALWAYS document. Sorry, that's nonsense. The legal system is a fantastic thing that makes everything more difficult and take longer. And that after having to call the police and hope that they believe you (the cyclist) over the driver that will lie to defend themselves.

As an example of the wonderful legal system I use my friend Leo. He is a bike mechanic (i forget which shop he used to work at but he worked with Martin at one point just not sure if it was at Performance. I include this to give you Leo's cred as an practiced cyclist). He was hit and severely injured, including hospitalization, surgery, casting, long term physical therapy and he's still not regularly riding after a year. The driver was ticketed for having no license and no insurance at the time of the accident. She got her license and insurance afterward and when she went to court she walked away having only to pay a $55 dollar fine (CPD didn't any citations related to his injuries and he was in the right, At least the Reporting Officer got that right on the report). That's it. Leo has not received a dollar from this crazy ass chick cause she has 3 kids and is on welfare and a civil suit is pretty useless cause the lawyers he talks to realize they won't get paid even if they win.

Sometimes you solve the problem yourself. If there was a chance of her getting to far away I would have been the angry cyclist, destroyed her rear window with my u-lock and disappeared. Happily she paid for the damage after being chased down. And happily I wasn't hurt.
Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on July 8, 2009 at 10:17am
I read "boredom" not "bedroom."

Brian Kennedy said:
Perhaps that is why he's hosting conference calls in his bedroom.

h3 said:
Congratulations to Ryan for having the longest post on the chainlink forum!

(wait, that didn't sound right . . .)

Ryan LaGasse said:
I apologize in advance for my long post. I was on the most boring conference call that had nothing to do with me so I wrote this out in my boredom
Permalink Reply by Vilda on July 8, 2009 at 10:21am
Bored in the bedroom? They have pills and toys for that. ;-)
Permalink Reply by Ryan L on July 8, 2009 at 10:22am
Brian Kennedy said:
Perhaps that is why he's hosting conference calls in his bedroom.

h3 said:
Congratulations to Ryan for having the longest post on the chainlink forum!

(wait, that didn't sound right . . .)

Ryan LaGasse said:
I apologize in advance for my long post. I was on the most boring conference call that had nothing to do with me so I wrote this out in my boredom

lol, I wish I was hosting those conference calls. That way it would only take 30 min for 6 people to realize they have no idea what's going on instead of 1 Hr 30 Min with nothing to show for it. On the plus side it allows me time to vomit my thought on the interwebs, although that is not always a good thing :)
Permalink Reply by Alan Ortiz on October 28, 2009 at 12:06pm
Article in the NY Times:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/do-more-bicyclists-lead-to...

It's about the relationship between biking injuries and the increase in ridership, the related challenges, and some observed behaviors.
Permalink Reply by Anne Alt on October 28, 2009 at 1:39pm
Interesting article with some good comments. Thanks for sharing.

Alan Ortiz said:
Article in the NY Times:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/do-more-bicyclists-lead-to...

It's about the relationship between biking injuries and the increase in ridership, the related challenges, and some observed behaviors.
Permalink Reply by Glenn on October 28, 2009 at 10:39pm
I got a coke can thrown at me from behind last summer. It was scary because it wasn't even opened. Lucky for me it missed me by a few feet. It scares me how sick people are to actually think its ok to chuck 12 ounce (metal) cans of pressurized soda at someones head for just trying to ride a bicycle, save a little money and maybe live a healthy life. I assume they where young because it was a rice burner.

Then last week I was actually chased by some high school-ers. leaving a game. They chased me around the block while yelling what I assume to be profanities at me. Lucky, again, me running a red usually doesn't result in a squad car. Again, young; still in high school.

Other then that the usual honk here and there or taunting by kids on the sidewalk.


Keep safe out there everyone. Just because this is a 1/3 world country doesn't mean we are all civil out there. safe travels.
Permalink Reply by Jamie on October 29, 2009 at 6:02am
I nearly had my ticket punched this morning. motorist pulled into the bike lane on Damen (southbound around Chicago) just so he could look up the road at all the traffic that was holding him up (it was a little more backed up than usual). I was able to avoid him.

I caught up to him at the next stop light (I didn't chase after him)...

I knocked on the passenger side window and yelled so he could hear me... "pay attention, you nearly hit me!" I'm curious how others react after nearly being injured/killed?

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