Tunney wants MORE cars in Lakeview...
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Suzanne on
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Have you signed yet? The petition is getting coverage in the Tribune and on tv, with updates on number of signatures. If you care about transportation choices and urban communities, sign on and be counted (and share with your friends).
http://www.change.org/petitions/alderman-tom-tunney-chicago-cubs-do...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-chicago-cubs-...
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Permalink Reply by Kyle on
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I live in Uptown so I walk to games and I ride the red line every day to work, but for groups or families public transportation is not cheap. My frame of reference is a Sox game. I can give the Sox $23 and BP $4 or CTA $18 round trip (4 people). Its quicker and more comfortable door to seat to drive and I don't have to expose my family to red line bums and filth. If I'm already spending $150+ for the game, $9 to avoid standing with a sleeping kid or explaining why there are beer cans and urine on the floor (those who ride the CTA know I'm not exaggerating) is cheap.
It even makes sense for me to sometimes drive to places like the Shedd, although I often take CTA even with the family. Biking for trips like that is not an option for us.
Suzanne said:David,
I'll give it a try. 1. Transportation choices are cheap, compared to parking. Let's try investing in, and clearly marketing, these choices to get to Wrigley Field first. If that takes care of the demand, the neighborhood and environment is better off, without a permanent, expensive concrete structure.
2. Alderman Tunney's request for up to 8,000 new parking spaces is not for the hotel, it is for the 100-year old ball field. He has requested stand-alone, multi-level parking for 20% of Wrigley Field current (not new) capacity, in response to neighbors' concerns that people park on our streets:
"...as a condition of allowing renovations at Wrigley Field, a strong majority of residents support requiring Wrigley Field to use neighboring land owned by the Cubs to provide parking for at least twenty percent of their capacity, such as building a multi-story parking garage. The positions I have taken in my discussions with the Cubs closely mirror those of my constituents." Alderman Tom Tunney, March 8, 2013 http://www.44thward.org/site/epage/142019_1026.htm
A new parking garage will cost about $7 million, so the Cubs will charge to recover costs. People who now park cheaply (sometimes illegally) on streets or in neighbors' spots will continue to do so. Meanwhile, there's a new $10 million TIF-funded parking garage at Truman College that is underutilized. It will not go away, so let's use this and existing lots first. Internet apps can connect drivers to parking.
3. Agreed, some people need wheelchair and special needs access. Let's accommodate them, and not block their way with 8,000 cars trying to park next door.
4. Neighbors' parallel concern is traffic. Transportation choices are a better solution to traffic.
David Barish said:Seating capcity for Madison Square Garden is just under 20,000. http://www.thegarden.com/faq.html
Seating capacity for Wrigley Field is just over 41,000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrigley_Field
I see apple and oranges here.
New York City can be viewed as a cyclists utopia as its simply crazy to own or operate a car. Nowhere to drive, nowhere to park. The cost of vehicle ownership is prohibitive. The millions of people who live there in a much more dense area have no choice but to cope. Chicago is not the same city, even at its most congested.
We are on the same page in terms of wanting less motor vehicle traffic. We differ insofar as my eyes are open and I see that vehicles will be there and feel that something has to be done about them. I am not on the side of either the Cubs or the alderman. As a citizen, I think they ought to increase parking of all kinds if they are doing any significant renovation and expansion of the park.
I am willing to sign the petition if somebody can explain why this proposal is flawed outside of a general rant about why cars are bad and why nobody should ever drive.
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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on
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Build it and they will come.
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Permalink Reply by Lee Crandell on
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Yes, speaking of Yankee Stadium, they've made this mistake already and built a massive parking garage that sits more than half empty, leading them to default on bond payments.
What a great investment that turned out to be. Let's not repeat the same mistake. We already have spaces that aren't filling up in the neighborhood, and we've already invested too much in trying to get people to drive their cars into Lakeview by forcing other private developers to build too much parking. Forcing people to build excess parking is a form of public subsidy that floods the market with supply in order to drive prices down, encouraging more people to drive.
Duane Waller said:Actually, you should be asking if a lot of NYers drive to see the Mets or Yankees, and the answer is yes. Also, MSG isn't in an area that is predominantly residential, like Lakeview, so no one would really give a rat's a** if a billion people drove there.
Alex Z said:Do you think a lot of New Yorkers drive to Madison Square Garden to see the Knicks? What about Chicagoans driving to Lollapalooza?
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Permalink Reply by Julie Aberman (Hochstadter) on
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done!
Suzanne said:Have you signed yet? The petition is getting coverage in the Tribune and on tv, with updates on number of signatures. If you care about transportation choices and urban communities, sign on and be counted (and share with your friends).
http://www.change.org/petitions/alderman-tom-tunney-chicago-cubs-do...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-chicago-cubs-...
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Permalink Reply by S on
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That seems like direct empirical evidence against the more parking = more cars adage. Are there really places close to Wrigley that aren't filled up? I admit I try to avoid the neighborhood during game day (mostly successfully) but the few times I've been around, it looks like the lots are all packed to capacity and then some.
Lee Crandell said:Yes, speaking of Yankee Stadium, they've made this mistake already and built a massive parking garage that sits more than half empty, leading them to default on bond payments.
What a great investment that turned out to be. Let's not repeat the same mistake. We already have spaces that aren't filling up in the neighborhood, and we've already invested too much in trying to get people to drive their cars into Lakeview by forcing other private developers to build too much parking. Forcing people to build excess parking is a form of public subsidy that floods the market with supply in order to drive prices down, encouraging more people to drive.
Duane Waller said:Actually, you should be asking if a lot of NYers drive to see the Mets or Yankees, and the answer is yes. Also, MSG isn't in an area that is predominantly residential, like Lakeview, so no one would really give a rat's a** if a billion people drove there.
Alex Z said:Do you think a lot of New Yorkers drive to Madison Square Garden to see the Knicks? What about Chicagoans driving to Lollapalooza?
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We need to pick battles that we can win and not merely tilt at every windmill. The Cubs also want to build a hotel. Like it or not, hotels, with VERY rate exceptions, are expected to have parking. Ultimately that's going to be the "basis" for the garage. The effective solution is eliminating all of the "unofficial" parking that has appeared in the area... the private houses that rent out their space, the stores and gas stations that rent out their parking during the game. If they want to build the big garage? Okay. Regulate it, limit the paths going into the garage and eliminate all of the other parking in the neighborhood on game days and nights for non-residents. Require that the Cub garage parking be "pre-bought" with the equivalent of a boarding pass that is scanned at the time of entry. That's going to, in the longer term, reduce the number of cars that come into the neighborhood.
But, just like the Viet Nam War protesters, occupy wall street, and Critical Mass, I am sure that many well meaning people are going to engage in ineffective protests that will prevent effective solutions, and ultimately lead to results that are not optimal.
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How so? If the garage is half empty, that still means it's half full of cars that are driving into the neighborhood. And as I mentioned, forcing developers to build too much parking puts pressure on other lots to reduce prices, until it's more attractive for more people to drive into the neighborhood and park. You can see the end result of this approach when you compare urban neighborhoods to suburban sprawl, where regulations require building massive amounts of free parking at every destination, so everybody drives. And there's no shortage of cities that have also tried this approach.
S said:That seems like direct empirical evidence against the more parking = more cars adage. Are there really places close to Wrigley that aren't filled up? I admit I try to avoid the neighborhood during game day (mostly successfully) but the few times I've been around, it looks like the lots are all packed to capacity and then some.
Lee Crandell said:Yes, speaking of Yankee Stadium, they've made this mistake already and built a massive parking garage that sits more than half empty, leading them to default on bond payments.
What a great investment that turned out to be. Let's not repeat the same mistake. We already have spaces that aren't filling up in the neighborhood, and we've already invested too much in trying to get people to drive their cars into Lakeview by forcing other private developers to build too much parking. Forcing people to build excess parking is a form of public subsidy that floods the market with supply in order to drive prices down, encouraging more people to drive.
Duane Waller said:Actually, you should be asking if a lot of NYers drive to see the Mets or Yankees, and the answer is yes. Also, MSG isn't in an area that is predominantly residential, like Lakeview, so no one would really give a rat's a** if a billion people drove there.
Alex Z said:Do you think a lot of New Yorkers drive to Madison Square Garden to see the Knicks? What about Chicagoans driving to Lollapalooza?
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H' - yes! Bike Uptown has posted more info and flyers http://bikeuptown.org/ and contact info at wrigleyparking-no@yahoo.com. People are meeting in person at 2:30 tomorrow to walk/bike the area during opening day. As that's not convenient for many people, it would be great to have a meeting later in the week/weekend. I'm in.
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Howard - A small group of residents was already connected via email outside of Chainlink before this was posted here, and I'm looped in. Anyone who wants to be more involved should probably email wrigleyparking-no@yahoo.com rather than trying to organize on here. There's a lot of conversation happening that's not on the Chainlink.
I understand where you're coming from as far as positive framing, but considering the context and how fast things are moving in this situation, the opposition framing seems fine here. The parking garage (what we don't want) is a specific proposal that doesn't necessarily need an alternative (what we want) in the context of the Wrigley Field restoration project and negotiations (though investment in the alternatives would certainly be nice). In the broader context and if this were about more parking generally, yes, it would be good to articulate a vision of what we want for the future of the neighborhood as public education, but this is moving too fast to do more than make it clear where residents stand on this specific project. That said, it is good to point to some specific alternative approaches, and the petition does outline some of these, which I agree with. I've also suggested to the alderman's office that instead of building a garage, maybe the Cubs could fund an actual parking utilization and management study (which would include evaluation of some of the innovative ideas in the petition). This is something Wicker Park-Bucktown is doing now: http://www.cmap.illinois.gov/moving-forward-in-detail/-/asset_publi.... I'm participating in a meeting between Tunney, the Cubs and Lake View Citizens' Council on Tue., as an LVCC board member, and I'll be reiterating these alternative ideas there along with the concerns of residents about adding parking. Keep in mind, this also isn't the only touch point people like us have in the neighborhood to share what we're for. Many of us also participate in community meetings and are in touch with the alderman or his staff, supporting and praising positive steps toward the future we'd like to see in Lakeview (for example, I've vocally supported Tunney in community meetings when it comes to allowing developers to add density, and I've expressed my excitement about stop-for-pedestrian signs and a Neighborhood Greenway on School) -- these are opportunities to promote a different vision for the neighborhood.
I also think you'd be surprised how many neighborhood stakeholders get the "more parking brings more cars" argument. As an engaged citizen of Lakeview, I can tell you this has come up before, and the block club by Wrigley has even taken an official position in the past that more parking should not be built near the field. Let's not underestimate how many people agree with us.
h' 1.0 said:Not sure my communication was understood-- by strategy meeting I was thinking of more of a small, focused group of people with some degree of expertise. All I see at the links is the same "don't turn Wrigley into a parking lot" without much substance behind it, which I think is an unfortunate framing of the message.
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Permalink Reply by Kevin C Dormant on
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Wow, lots of different moving parts in this discussion thread. I have lived in the City of Chicago for just over 30 years and as others have mentioned in this thread, Wrigleyville has been a disaster on game days for probably 15-20 of those years. As others have also suggested, I avoid Wrigley Field on game days and frankly, the neighborhood has "evolved" over the years into an area populated by bars I don't want to drink at, restaurants I don't want to eat at, and full of people I don't want to socialize with. And so I don't.
The Chicago Cubs are a unique animal in MLB in that they are not just a professional franchise, but THE TEAM that attracts more out of town visitors than any other team in major league baseball. For a lot of people around the world, making a trip to Wrigley Field is tantamount to a pilgrimage to Mecca. Don't think for a minute that the Ricketts haven't focus-grouped this fact in determining that the construction of a $200 million hotel at the corner of Clark & Addison is a financially viable-and likely profitable business venture. That hotel is not intended for Chicago residents, it's intended for the Cubs' worldwide fans, out of state fans, and probably some ticket holders from outlying suburbs.
Ald. Tunney is elected by, and is responsible to his constituents. He has held meetings and his constituents have rightly or wrongly determined that the additional Disney-fication of Wrigleyville is going to require additional parking capacity. So be it. The proposed parking garage either will or will not bring more cars into Wrigleyville. Wrigleyville has been dead to me for at least 10 years. Why exactly should I be concerned if it becomes a little more dead?
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Permalink Reply by Adam Herstein on
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Kevin C said:
Because some people actually live in the area (shocker, I know) and don't want more cars clogging up the neighborhood. Way to be totally selfish here, buddy.Wrigleyville has been dead to me for at least 10 years. Why exactly should I be concerned if it becomes a little more dead?
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