This is Why Bike Mechanics are Always Grumpy...

It's mostly because we get paid bullshit.

Seriously, do you have any idea how annoying it is to get bitched at about the cost of a tune up when you don't make shit?

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Permalink Reply by Paul Michael Ignacio on February 13, 2014 at 2:39am
Just catching up with this thread. Wow. I'm with you, ilter; our friend Tom D should really just excuse himself from the conversation. Or at the very least withhold from making sweeping pronouncements over an industry with which he has little to no first-hand knowledge.

Take his last bit about bicycle wheels: impossible to automate? Literally millions and millions of bikes are built every year. Take that figure and double that for the number of wheels needed, and this dude really thinks that some poor human is out there lacing them all by hand? I know he was actually speaking in favor of mechanics and the one skill of theirs he recognized, but it's hard to really appreciate a good handbuilt wheel if you don't realize that the vast majority of bikes out there are rolling on mass-produced, machine-built wheels. That his bike is probably rolling on those wheels.

Tellya wut, Tom. Walk into any good bike shop and ask them about wheel building. Not sure which ones are good? They're the ones who'll answer any and all of the questions you have.
Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on February 13, 2014 at 3:57am

Serious human skill huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYEv2NDdzE

Maybe you should stick to talking about things you actually know about, eh?

Tom Dworzanski said:

Just that they seem to specialize in building high quality wheels. They were the first two links on Google. I don't know anything else about them.

I guess I'm also trying to gently imply that specializing in wheels is one way to earn more money in the cycling industry since it's impossible to automate and requires serious human skill (art).


ilter said:

Tom, what's special about these two stores that linked to?


Tom Dworzanski said:

[snip]

I do agree with you that there is an art to building and truing wheels. A few people (one two) specialize in it.

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on February 13, 2014 at 3:59am

Yes you are.

Bike shops don't make a ton of profit and nobody is getting rich owning one.  Most shops pay what they can but the low margin of the business prevents them from paying more.

El Dorado said:

Maybe instead of venting about customers you should be venting about your bosses? You know the bike shop owners who pay your salary. Then again I'm pretty stupid.

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on February 13, 2014 at 4:00am

I'm out in Oak Park but you can drop stuff off at our city shop and they'll transfer it out to me in Oak Park so you can avoid the trip.  PM me if you want to work something out.

Diego Rael- 16.0mi said:

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I can look it up online and think maybe i can do it myself but when I ask an expert he relays all kinds of scenarios. I don't know what the fuck I'm looking at and even if the online video can walk me through it I don't have the hands on skill to know what the fuck I am doing. Alright DUG  let me know where you are at and when I need to bring it in you will be my go to.
notoriousDUG said:

It depends on what the hub needs.  If it just needs to be lubed and greased up I usually charge about $60 for that and that includes packing the outer bearings with marine grease (it's a common issue for the grease to washout of the outer bearing and the race to get damaged when it urns dry ruining the hub shell and marine grease prevents that).  If they need  more than that I need to open it up and see what it needs; more often than not the parts are not available or cost effective to purchase but sometimes they can be fixed.

Diego Rael- 16.0mi said:

I find this really funny because  nobody really needs watches anymore, but since rich people  love to have some of these outrageously expensive status symbols on there wrists and yes some watches can cost over $100,000.00 I'm there to provide a service for these items and I find it more useless than the skills of a bike mechanic which I hold in higher esteem than my job and  something that  I feel betters society as a whole. I thinks prices for bike repairs are ridiculously low compared to auto repair and true you can learn this stuff online but  most people don't have the time  or skill set to accomplish  this stuff on their own. I feel if bike shops united and came to an agreement that this is a much needed service then they could raise the bar and charge more thus paying the mechanics a better wage. Sorry to say it but screw the people with their shitty Walmart bikes complaining about the price of an overhaul. They are not real cyclists and if they don't want to pay for a much needed service that they can't perform on their own so be it.  As a watchmaker I have the tools and skills necessary to service  a majority of the complex timepieces out there, therefore I can charge $700.00 to over $1000.00 for an overhaul on a Rolex or a Panerai. Now I know this is not the same as the bike world but as DUG said bikes are getting more complex and as it stands  if you cant fix it or afford the tools to do it yourself then expect to pay the price. I charge $60.00 to change the battery in a high end Swiss watch and over $100.00 to do it in Patek Philippe and Rolex watches. Why can I charge this? Well, because I have the proper tools and skills and know that someone with a $5000.00 or more watch is not going to take it to the mall kiosk and if they want to well God bless them. DUG, bike shops need to start adjusting their prices because a customer with a really high end bike should pay more for an overhaul than someone with a Walmart bike. They obviously have more money and will pay for  a highly skilled service on their investment and wont complain. By the way I think I need my Shimano Nexus 8 serviced soon and don't want to really do it myself even though i have researched the how to online. What does something like that cost? I'll even tip you a bottle of Bourbon.

Permalink Reply by Haddon on February 13, 2014 at 4:18am

I'll say it - DUG you are consistently the snottiest most condescending asshole on this site. You are quicker that most everyone offer insult and you really should dial it back.  I know a few mechanics and most of them are pretty happy actually.  You owe this guy (and many other people some apologies).  Your shop, specifically, fucked me out of about a hundred bucks and is the reason I now try to do my own repairs.  I'm pretty sure no matter what job you had you would be grumpy. 

notoriousDUG said:

Yes you are.

Bike shops don't make a ton of profit and nobody is getting rich owning one.  Most shops pay what they can but the low margin of the business prevents them from paying more.

El Dorado said:

Maybe instead of venting about customers you should be venting about your bosses? You know the bike shop owners who pay your salary. Then again I'm pretty stupid.

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on February 13, 2014 at 4:35am

What shop fucked you out of $100 and how and when?  If Element screwed you over I'll make sure that gets fixed.


Haddon said:

I'll say it - DUG you are consistently the snottiest most condescending asshole on this site. You are quicker that most everyone offer insult and you really should dial it back.  I know a few mechanics and most of them are pretty happy actually.  You owe this guy (and many other people some apologies).  Your shop, specifically, fucked me out of about a hundred bucks and is the reason I now try to do my own repairs.  I'm pretty sure no matter what job you had you would be grumpy. 

notoriousDUG said:

Yes you are.

Bike shops don't make a ton of profit and nobody is getting rich owning one.  Most shops pay what they can but the low margin of the business prevents them from paying more.

El Dorado said:

Maybe instead of venting about customers you should be venting about your bosses? You know the bike shop owners who pay your salary. Then again I'm pretty stupid.

Permalink Reply by Tom Dworzanski on February 13, 2014 at 4:56am

Thanks for going out of your way to find what the video claims to be "the only" automated truing machine that automates the tasks of wheel building. I guess you can find any scam online. Notice how they instantly cite the machine's limitations and then spend just as much time promoting the manual high quality machine. And of course it has automated wheel rejection as a major feature because it needs an excuse for when it doesn't get lucky. Also all the human labor installing spokes just goes to prove my point.

None of this matters anyway because you know it takes skill to true a wheel precisely (you made the point several times yesterday) and you're just interested in arguing with me.

I'm sorry that you ignore the points I'm making and just focus on nitpicking little statements out of context over and over. Life must suck having so much anger that it comes out in this way. I hope you figure that out.


notoriousDUG said:

Serious human skill huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYEv2NDdzE

Maybe you should stick to talking about things you actually know about, eh?

Tom Dworzanski said:

Just that they seem to specialize in building high quality wheels. They were the first two links on Google. I don't know anything else about them.

I guess I'm also trying to gently imply that specializing in wheels is one way to earn more money in the cycling industry since it's impossible to automate and requires serious human skill (art).


ilter said:

Tom, what's special about these two stores that linked to?


Tom Dworzanski said:

[snip]

I do agree with you that there is an art to building and truing wheels. A few people (one two) specialize in it.

Permalink Reply by Tom Dworzanski on February 13, 2014 at 5:05am

That's correct. Many things cannot be automated easily in manufacturing from wheel building to sewing clothes. I'm sorry if you can't wrap your mind around that idea.


Paul Michael Ignacio said:
Just catching up with this thread. Wow. I'm with you, ilter; our friend Tom D should really just excuse himself from the conversation. Or at the very least withhold from making sweeping pronouncements over an industry with which he has little to no first-hand knowledge.

Take his last bit about bicycle wheels: impossible to automate? Literally millions and millions of bikes are built every year. Take that figure and double that for the number of wheels needed, and this dude really thinks that some poor human is out there lacing them all by hand?

I know he was actually speaking in favor of mechanics and the one skill of theirs he recognized, but it's hard to really appreciate a good handbuilt wheel if you don't realize that the vast majority of bikes out there are rolling on mass-produced, machine-built wheels. That his bike is probably rolling on those wheels.

Tellya wut, Tom. Walk into any good bike shop and ask them about wheel building. Not sure which ones are good? They're the ones who'll answer any and all of the questions you have.
Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on February 13, 2014 at 5:19am

My anger comes from the fact that you are being willfully ignorant here.  

Machine built wheels are a thing and almost all stock wheels on bikes are machine built as are most replacement wheels sold in bike shops. 

Do you really think there is somebody hand building all of the wheels that go onto box store bikes?

Why is it that you presume to know more about this than somebody who actually works in the industry?


Tom Dworzanski said:

Thanks for going out of your way to find what the video claims to be "the only" automated truing machine that automates the tasks of wheel building. I guess you can find any scam online. Notice how they instantly cite the machine's limitations and then spend just as much time promoting the manual high quality machine. And of course it has automated wheel rejection as a major feature because it needs an excuse for when it doesn't get lucky. Also all the human labor installing spokes just goes to prove my point.

None of this matters anyway because you know it takes skill to true a wheel precisely (you made the point several times yesterday) and you're just interested in arguing with me.

I'm sorry that you ignore the points I'm making and just focus on nitpicking little statements out of context over and over. Life must suck having so much anger that it comes out in this way. I hope you figure that out.


notoriousDUG said:

Serious human skill huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYEv2NDdzE

Maybe you should stick to talking about things you actually know about, eh?

Tom Dworzanski said:

Just that they seem to specialize in building high quality wheels. They were the first two links on Google. I don't know anything else about them.

I guess I'm also trying to gently imply that specializing in wheels is one way to earn more money in the cycling industry since it's impossible to automate and requires serious human skill (art).


ilter said:

Tom, what's special about these two stores that linked to?


Tom Dworzanski said:

[snip]

I do agree with you that there is an art to building and truing wheels. A few people (one two) specialize in it.

Permalink Reply by Tom Dworzanski on February 13, 2014 at 5:25am

Moving on to your other points: they're good points, what else can I say? It's not that I think you're right in your criticism of how resources are allocated, it's just that I don't think you're necessarily wrong. I think we'd end up debating the merits of markets versus central planning which is just a never-ending debate. So as usual I respectfully disagree. I do appreciate your points.



Davo said:

I figured you'd like that. Econ minor here. Anyhoo back on topic….

Tom Dworzanski said:

Lol Zing!

Davo said:

You must be getting an amazing invisible hand job

Permalink Reply by Liz on February 13, 2014 at 5:51am


Hehe, he says auto nipple tightening machine while sounding so proper. 


notoriousDUG said:

Serious human skill huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYEv2NDdzE

Maybe you should stick to talking about things you actually know about, eh?


Permalink Reply by Tom Dworzanski on February 13, 2014 at 6:29am

Yes, someone physically feeds the spokes of every wheel built into the rim. Yes, every well-trued wheel is trued by hand (unless it happens to be perfect by chance). I know you know the latter.


Why do you act like you have some sort of superior knowledge to guard as if you're some sort of fourteenth century stonemason?



notoriousDUG said:

My anger comes from the fact that you are being willfully ignorant here.  

Machine built wheels are a thing and almost all stock wheels on bikes are machine built as are most replacement wheels sold in bike shops. 

Do you really think there is somebody hand building all of the wheels that go onto box store bikes?

Why is it that you presume to know more about this than somebody who actually works in the industry?


Tom Dworzanski said:

Thanks for going out of your way to find what the video claims to be "the only" automated truing machine that automates the tasks of wheel building. I guess you can find any scam online. Notice how they instantly cite the machine's limitations and then spend just as much time promoting the manual high quality machine. And of course it has automated wheel rejection as a major feature because it needs an excuse for when it doesn't get lucky. Also all the human labor installing spokes just goes to prove my point.

None of this matters anyway because you know it takes skill to true a wheel precisely (you made the point several times yesterday) and you're just interested in arguing with me.

I'm sorry that you ignore the points I'm making and just focus on nitpicking little statements out of context over and over. Life must suck having so much anger that it comes out in this way. I hope you figure that out.


notoriousDUG said:

Serious human skill huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYEv2NDdzE

Maybe you should stick to talking about things you actually know about, eh?

Tom Dworzanski said:

Just that they seem to specialize in building high quality wheels. They were the first two links on Google. I don't know anything else about them.

I guess I'm also trying to gently imply that specializing in wheels is one way to earn more money in the cycling industry since it's impossible to automate and requires serious human skill (art).


ilter said:

Tom, what's special about these two stores that linked to?


Tom Dworzanski said:

[snip]

I do agree with you that there is an art to building and truing wheels. A few people (one two) specialize in it.

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