Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Michael Perz on May 11, 2010 at 7:19am

Cars in Europe aren't smaller because of bureaucratic central planning in the aftermath of war or because of absurd rates of taxation. Even if WWII had somehow been averted Europeans would still be driving tiny cars because the majority of their cities were developed long before the advent of internal combustion so the streets are smaller.

I also find it particularly annoying when people claim, "I love the US," and proceed to qualify it with, "but..." as if that first part of their statement is merely rhetorical window dressing. If you want to gain traction in pointless dinner table debates with your European in-laws over who keeps the cleanest house, you should start by not referring to freedom in quotation marks.

Clark said:

I agree with Duppie's continuing argument. My wife is from Europe, and we go over there annually, so I can tell you that even for advanced countries, you seldom see more than 4-lane divided highways. The reason? Many fewer people drive hours every day. And they drive smaller cars, and they drive much less annual milage. And there are very few long-distance trucks on those highways too...most freight travels by high-efficiency rail or water...so their roads and highways stay in excellent shape with little maintenance.

As usual Wikipedia has some interesting statistics - remember a liter is about 1/4 of a US gallon:
...Most European countries have high fuel taxes. The prices have traditionally been three to four times the price in the United States, with prices during 2000-2005 of €1,50/liter (about US$2.14/liter or $8.10/gal) while the US had prices around $1.50/gal or $0.40/liter....

Since WWII many of those countries have had "planned" economies where developers were forced to build compact towns around transit hubs, leaving great amounts of natural space for recreation. With our "freedom" in the US, we've sprawled Chicago and other US cities out 80miles in all directions. I love the US...but it is increasingly difficult to defend our national positions in my debates with my in-laws. Getting our gas taxes in line with the rest of the First World would almost be a no-brainer...despite the howls of outrage from various uneducated and small-minded Americans.


Duppie said:

...if we tax gasoline, then the vehicles will at first appear to be cheaper as the cost to drive them will be cheaper...This will not brush under the carpet the very poor like myself, because, already there are options of bicycles and motorized bikes , and public transportation, and these will become more and more available...

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on May 11, 2010 at 8:55am

Just curious but what do you think the increase in the price of fuel is going to do to the very poor when the public transportation they rely on has to raise prices in order to offset the fuel tax?

Do you understand that you are not just going to have the fuel price increase from the tax but also see an increase in the actual price of the fuel pre-tax because of the increased delivery cost?

And this is the one question that you never seem to answer, one I would think that as someone who identifies themselves as 'very poor' you would find important: What about what a tax like this is going to do to the price of the necessities in life? What are you going to do when the prices of the food you buy at the store doubles because of the cost of shipping is now sky high? How do you expect the 'very poor' to be able to afford a GIGANTIC increase in their cost of living?

Really unless you can address the questions in that last paragraph with a clear and well thought out answers you are nothing but a complete and total crack put with a poorly thought out and impractical harebrained scheme who is just trolling the board up here.

Use your brain and address the biggest problem with your idea or shut up.

jillnerkowski said:

I found that after searching for alternative vehicles to post on my facebook page, just yesterday, and that, there are an incredible amount of electric and three wheel, hybrid, and miniature vehicles out for sale to drive as opposed to the standard 4 cylinder petrol car.
the problem is, that if they cost more money then a standard 4 cylinder, and there are no regulations governing what we drive, then who will buy them?
but if we tax gasoline, then the vehicles will at first appear to be cheaper ,as the cost to drive them will be cheaper, and then little by little as more and more of them appear for sale for this reason, DEMAND, then the actual cost of them will be cheaper as well.
This will not brush under the carpet the very poor like myself, because, already there are options of bicycles and motorized bikes , and public transportation, and these will become more and more available, as our roads change.
we have to admit that with our love of freedom, a gas tax sounds less supressive than govt. regulations would be, if our world becomes so polluted that it warrants such.
it seems better too because we would have govt. money to improve the roads.

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on May 11, 2010 at 8:58am

Did you even read what he wrote!?

He just explained to you yet another reason your scheme is a horrible idea and you are either choosing to completely ignore it or just don't get it...

jillnerkowski said:

Michael Perz said:

I really don't know the best way to address this, so I'll just be blunt. You really should spend some time examining the basic principles of economics before giving way to your convictions. Currently your posts indicate a severe lack of understanding of the subject.

Demand does not in any way guarantee supply. Imagine that you govern an area that produces both wheat and rice, and that you decide to prohibitively tax wheat consumption because you feel that too many acres of land are being tilled in its production. Doing so will not give any incentives whatsoever for rice farmers to increase their production. In effect the rice farmers would end up with a monopoly on grain production and you'd end up with a lot more hungry people than there were before.

jillnerkowski said:

I found that after searching for alternative vehicles to post on my facebook page, just yesterday, and that, there are an incredible amount of electric and three wheel, hybrid, and miniature vehicles out for sale to drive as opposed to the standard 4 cylinder petrol car.
the problem is, that if they cost more money then a standard 4 cylinder, and there are no regulations governing what we drive, then who will buy them?
but if we tax gasoline, then the vehicles will at first appear to be cheaper ,as the cost to drive them will be cheaper, and then little by little as more and more of them appear for sale for this reason, DEMAND, then the actual cost of them will be cheaper as well.
This will not brush under the carpet the very poor like myself, because, already there are options of bicycles and motorized bikes , and public transportation, and these will become more and more available, as our roads change.
we have to admit that with our love of freedom, a gas tax sounds less supressive than govt. regulations would be, if our world becomes so polluted that it warrants such.
it seems better too because we would have govt. money to improve the roads.

thats exactly what Im hoping for, the wheat ( the oil will become too expensive, and the alternative vehicles, the rice, will become competitive, instead of a luxery for yuppie and die hard greenies)

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on May 11, 2010 at 9:05am

Owned one, converted several and am going to be converting another.

It is not as easy to run as it seems on the surface and modern diesel engines with pollution controls and computer controlled injection pumps on them do not much care for grease a as a fuel source. If we switched to that as a fuel we would have to take 2 giant steps BACK in the arena of efficiency and emissions on diesel engine. An old school diesel is one of the dirtiest motors out there.

I think that it is safe to say that I am one of the most knowledgeable people on this board when it comes to diesel engines and running them on other fuels and I can tell you right now that large scale conversion to greasal on over the road trucks is not a realistic idea due to power out put, emissions and parts wear and tear issues. Ever wonder why new diesel engines can only run about a 10% bio fuel?

Also, diesels where not made to run on *any* fuel, try running one on gas and let me know how it goes. Or try running unaltered Jet-A (which is just a drier version of #1 or #2 diesel) or kerosene (also VERY close to diesel fuel) and let me know how long your injection pump lasts.

Roger said:

greasecar.com. These diesel engines run on used, post consumer, vegetable oil. The kind of oil that every restaurant that uses a deep fryer has to pay to get ride of. The environmental impact is lower that petroleum, the availability is unbelievably higher, it is a renewable resource, and it saves money from every angle of production.
This is not a new idea, in fact, diesel engines were designed to run on a whole myriad of fuels. Guess who doesn't want you to know that.
In short, the solution to fossil fuels already exists. The fact that the US is afraid to implement them is due to the public lack of knowledge. The nail in to coffin to the argument of a non viable "grease engine" is the fact that Wal Mart (arguably the most money hungry and socially irresponsible business in the US) has a whole fleet of these green machines delivering lead coated toys to our nations children at super low prices. When you don't pay for gas, delivery is more profitable.

I hope this helps you realize that there are solutions to this giant problem that is currently killing the Gulf of Mexico.

notoriousDUG said:

OK, tell me a readily available fuel source, one that is not based on a staple of our food supply, that is going to be able to, in less than two years, replace diesel fuel.

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on May 11, 2010 at 9:17am

Jill,

I just ran numbers because I was interested in it but your fuel tax would actually put me out of business or increase the cost of my service to my customers.

I have a need to get technicians all over the Midwest, and sometimes the country, in a timely manner with hundreds of pounds of parts and tools. I have jobs that occasionally require me to transport a large welder/generator and air compressor to customers sites as well as some where I have to utilize a truck with a crane on it.

How would you expect a business such as mine to cope with the fuel tax?

Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on May 11, 2010 at 3:06pm

Bike there! Bicycle trailers do exist.

notoriousDUG said:

Jill,
I just ran numbers because I was interested in it but your fuel tax would actually put me out of business or increase the cost of my service to my customers.
I have a need to get technicians all over the Midwest, and sometimes the country, in a timely manner with hundreds of pounds of parts and tools. I have jobs that occasionally require me to transport a large welder/generator and air compressor to customers sites as well as some where I have to utilize a truck with a crane on it.

How would you expect a business such as mine to cope with the fuel tax?

Permalink Reply by Joel on May 11, 2010 at 3:08pm

Simple, pass on the cost to the consumer. Businesses don't pay taxes in a direct sense, it is a cost of doing business and the customer ultimately foots the bill.

notoriousDUG said:

Jill,

I just ran numbers because I was interested in it but your fuel tax would actually put me out of business or increase the cost of my service to my customers.

I have a need to get technicians all over the Midwest, and sometimes the country, in a timely manner with hundreds of pounds of parts and tools. I have jobs that occasionally require me to transport a large welder/generator and air compressor to customers sites as well as some where I have to utilize a truck with a crane on it.

How would you expect a business such as mine to cope with the fuel tax?

Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on May 11, 2010 at 3:21pm

Yes Doug, just screw your customers - who might not be your customers much longer if you do.

Joel said:

Simple, pass on the cost to the consumer. Businesses don't pay taxes in a direct sense, it is a cost of doing business and the customer ultimately foots the bill.
notoriousDUG said:

Jill,

I just ran numbers because I was interested in it but your fuel tax would actually put me out of business or increase the cost of my service to my customers. I have a need to get technicians all over the Midwest, and sometimes the country, in a timely manner with hundreds of pounds of parts and tools. I have jobs that occasionally require me to transport a large welder/generator and air compressor to customers sites as well as some where I have to utilize a truck with a crane on it.

How would you expect a business such as mine to cope with the fuel tax?

Permalink Reply by Joel on May 11, 2010 at 3:27pm

Do you think businesses don't factor the cost of taxes into their services? It is no different than employee salary, rent, raw materials, etc. It is just another bill that needs to be paid, so the price of the product or service must be sufficient to pay that bill.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

Yes Doug, just screw your customers - who might not be your customers much longer if you do.
Joel said:

Simple, pass on the cost to the consumer. Businesses don't pay taxes in a direct sense, it is a cost of doing business and the customer ultimately foots the bill.
notoriousDUG said:

Jill,

I just ran numbers because I was interested in it but your fuel tax would actually put me out of business or increase the cost of my service to my customers. I have a need to get technicians all over the Midwest, and sometimes the country, in a timely manner with hundreds of pounds of parts and tools. I have jobs that occasionally require me to transport a large welder/generator and air compressor to customers sites as well as some where I have to utilize a truck with a crane on it. How would you expect a business such as mine to cope with the fuel tax?

Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on May 11, 2010 at 3:52pm

I know they do, but massively raising the price of gasoline would effectively screw the customer.

Joel said:

Do you think businesses don't factor the cost of taxes into their services? It is no different than employee salary, rent, raw materials, etc. It is just another bill that needs to be paid, so the price of the product or service must be sufficient to pay that bill.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

Yes Doug, just screw your customers - who might not be your customers much longer if you do.
Joel said:

Simple, pass on the cost to the consumer. Businesses don't pay taxes in a direct sense, it is a cost of doing business and the customer ultimately foots the bill.
notoriousDUG said:

Jill,

I just ran numbers because I was interested in it but your fuel tax would actually put me out of business or increase the cost of my service to my customers. I have a need to get technicians all over the Midwest, and sometimes the country, in a timely manner with hundreds of pounds of parts and tools. I have jobs that occasionally require me to transport a large welder/generator and air compressor to customers sites as well as some where I have to utilize a truck with a crane on it. How would you expect a business such as mine to cope with the fuel tax?

Permalink Reply by Joel on May 11, 2010 at 3:56pm

That was exactly my point.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

I know they do, but massively raising the price of gasoline would effectively screw the customer.

Joel said:

Do you think businesses don't factor the cost of taxes into their services? It is no different than employee salary, rent, raw materials, etc. It is just another bill that needs to be paid, so the price of the product or service must be sufficient to pay that bill.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

Yes Doug, just screw your customers - who might not be your customers much longer if you do.
Joel said:

Simple, pass on the cost to the consumer. Businesses don't pay taxes in a direct sense, it is a cost of doing business and the customer ultimately foots the bill.
notoriousDUG said:

Jill,

I just ran numbers because I was interested in it but your fuel tax would actually put me out of business or increase the cost of my service to my customers. I have a need to get technicians all over the Midwest, and sometimes the country, in a timely manner with hundreds of pounds of parts and tools. I have jobs that occasionally require me to transport a large welder/generator and air compressor to customers sites as well as some where I have to utilize a truck with a crane on it. How would you expect a business such as mine to cope with the fuel tax?

Permalink Reply by payton on May 11, 2010 at 7:09pm

okay, so this is not exactly a productive use of my time (nor of Bob Maher's), but I did want to mention this phrase: "green tax shift." Instead of spending the additional revenue, rebate it back to consumers by cutting other taxes. The higher price of gas will do a lot on its own to encourage alternatives, and consumers will be net no worse off than before.

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