Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on March 7, 2014 at 7:04am

There is just so much fail in here lately it's amazing to me...

OK, first off Adam I want you to do me a favor; go back and read all of the stories you post about close encounters with cars and your comments about interactions with drivers.  Read them and try to put yourself in the position of somebody who is reading them looking in from the outside.  After doing that can you honestly say that you don't come off as a reactionary and aggressive rider to escalates things?  I mean dude, you spit into somebody's car and then ran away!  How can you say that you are not aggressive at that point?

Now look at how often you are wound up about or getting in a fight with a motorist compared to everyone else here.  You are in FAR more altercations than anyone else here which is maybe something you should stop and think about...  What is more likely, that you are just that unlucky, that all other cyclists are silent about what happens to them on the road or that you are just way over sensitive and entitled when it comes to the road? 

You have a fair sized group of people who have tons of riding experience who all seem to think you may be part of the reason that you have so many problems on the road; doesn't that ever make you stop and wonder if maybe the problem isn't with everyone else?

The situation you described has no where near enough details to tell you how you should have acted or what was right.  I don't know what the road looked like, what traffic was like, if the honk was a polite 'I'm passing you toot' or laying on the horn or even just how close you got passed.  I don't know if you were in a bad place on the road that made no sense or not; maybe they passed you close because you were being a road hog, maybe they were aggressive I don't know.

However I can tell you this: No matter why they passed you close there is no point to yelling at them; it is not going to accomplish anything other than to fulfill the stereotype of the angry entitled cyclist in the eyes of the driver or, best case, scare and upset somebody who did have a preconceived negative attitude about cyclists.

Now, I know you say you don't care about how you make cyclists look because you just want to be safe but that is just selfish, shortsighted justification of your childish behavior.  Have you ever stopped to think a moment that some people are aggressive to cyclists and hate them because previous interactions with people who act like you have colored their judgement?  When you yell at a driver you are just providing them with a justifications for being that much shittier to the next cyclist.

When people pass to close, yell at you, insult you or other wise act the jerk just ride away; what do you honestly think you are going to accomplish?

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Permalink Reply by Skip Montanaro 0mi on March 7, 2014 at 7:19am

notoriousDUG said:

When people pass to close, yell at you, insult you or other wise act the jerk just ride away; what do you honestly think you are going to accomplish?

Perhaps one day Adam will spit in Kass's car. They will then be able to have a constructive dialogue about cars 'n bikes. :-)

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Permalink Reply by T.K. 3.5 mi on March 7, 2014 at 7:46am

Everyone is a cycling ambassador when they are on their bike or commenting on this forum. We all have different experiences out there. The forum is here to share them and discuss them in order to better our understanding and promote cycling in the city. Many conversations lately have gotten off of this track. Some people are obviously frustrated and others are trying to make valid points to salvage the situation, but the conversation doesn't look like its going to turn positive. I think we should all review this beautiful graph below, and then do some thinking about how we are reacting to the words and actions of those around us. Then get back on our bikes and have a grand ol time.

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Permalink Reply by Skip Montanaro 0mi on March 7, 2014 at 8:01am

So everyone should just shut up for a few more weeks. :-)

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Permalink Reply by Alex Z on March 7, 2014 at 8:05am

+1

notoriousDUG said:

Now look at how often you are wound up about or getting in a fight with a motorist compared to everyone else here.  You are in FAR more altercations than anyone else here which is maybe something you should stop and think about...  What is more likely, that you are just that unlucky, that all other cyclists are silent about what happens to them on the road or that you are just way over sensitive and entitled when it comes to the road? 

You have a fair sized group of people who have tons of riding experience who all seem to think you may be part of the reason that you have so many problems on the road; doesn't that ever make you stop and wonder if maybe the problem isn't with everyone else?

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Permalink Reply by Michelle Milham on March 7, 2014 at 9:13am

T.K. 8.4 mi said:

Everyone is a cycling ambassador when they are on their bike or commenting on this forum. We all have different experiences out there. The forum is here to share them and discuss them in order to better our understanding and promote cycling in the city. Many conversations lately have gotten off of this track. Some people are obviously frustrated and others are trying to make valid points to salvage the situation, but the conversation doesn't look like its going to turn positive. I think we should all review this beautiful graph below, and then do some thinking about how we are reacting to the words and actions of those around us. Then get back on our bikes and have a grand ol time.

This is so entirely correct for my life that I'm actually cracking up over here. 

Cyclists, my people.

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Permalink Reply by Chris LaFrombois (8.5 mi - o.w.) on March 7, 2014 at 9:30am

Adam is pretty spot on actually. I'm saying that share the road goes both ways - that also encompasses aggressive driving AND cycling. As a user of the road (legally), should I have to go out of my way and perhaps even a less efficient way just to avoid aggressive drivers? Would it behoove me to do so? Perhaps. At the same time aggressive drivers are on every roadway in this city. Education goes both ways.

And to address Tankin-ridin' Ryan, I have become very reasonable and less prone to getting into arguments with drivers over small infractions.

In fact, in one instance, on Elston going northbound, just north of Logan (in front of the strip mall), I had a guy lay on his horn as I took the lane (well ahead of him, I did not cut him off) because there was a large construction obstacle in the bike lane. When I shifted back over, he was yelling through his window, so I gave him the finger (not the best choice). Once he got 50 more feet to stopped traffic, we had an exchange that got less heated. He thought I was going to be like "every other messenger cyclist weaving in and out of traffic", and I simply responded, that as a cyclist I have a legal right to take the lane when my safety was in question. We had a few more words (pleasant), settled down and shook hands. I think that guy now has a better view of cyclists and I've learned how to somewhat diffuse a situation

However, I do realize there are visceral reactions to situations that when adrenaline is involved.

Kevin C said:

While I appreciate the fact that you believe you know what everyone else is saying, it was really a question for Chris.

Adam Herstein said:

That's not what he's saying at all. His point was that saying "take a different road" is not a solution to aggressive driving.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on March 7, 2014 at 10:11am

Are you somehow under the impression that people in cars don't have to make concessions to people who drive like aggro idiots? 

Bikes are not special in the fact that people who drive like ding-dongs make our lives hard; drivers have to deal with that as well.

Chris LaFrombois (8.5 mi - o.w.) said:

Adam is pretty spot on actually. I'm saying that share the road goes both ways - that also encompasses aggressive driving AND cycling. As a user of the road (legally), should I have to go out of my way and perhaps even a less efficient way just to avoid aggressive drivers? Would it behoove me to do so? Perhaps. At the same time aggressive drivers are on every roadway in this city. Education goes both ways.

And to address Tankin-ridin' Ryan, I have become very reasonable and less prone to getting into arguments with drivers over small infractions.

In fact, in one instance, on Elston going northbound, just north of Logan (in front of the strip mall), I had a guy lay on his horn as I took the lane (well ahead of him, I did not cut him off) because there was a large construction obstacle in the bike lane. When I shifted back over, he was yelling through his window, so I gave him the finger (not the best choice). Once he got 50 more feet to stopped traffic, we had an exchange that got less heated. He thought I was going to be like "every other messenger cyclist weaving in and out of traffic", and I simply responded, that as a cyclist I have a legal right to take the lane when my safety was in question. We had a few more words (pleasant), settled down and shook hands. I think that guy now has a better view of cyclists and I've learned how to somewhat diffuse a situation

However, I do realize there are visceral reactions to situations that when adrenaline is involved.

Kevin C said:

While I appreciate the fact that you believe you know what everyone else is saying, it was really a question for Chris.

Adam Herstein said:

That's not what he's saying at all. His point was that saying "take a different road" is not a solution to aggressive driving.

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Permalink Reply by Adam Herstein on March 7, 2014 at 10:18am

Obviously the end goal here is for everyone (people in cars, on bikes, and walking) to act in a courteous and patient manner towards other road users. The fact that this is not currently the case is the reasoning behind many education and advocacy efforts.

If you're arguing that cars and bikes are equal, I disagree. Keeping speed constant, when a person driving a car crashes into another car because he was not paying attention or angry or whatever, the consequences are far less drastic than if that same person crashed into a person on a bike or someone walking. The fact that people walking and riding bikes are more vulnerable than people in cars necessitates that the motorists take extra caution around these more vulnerable road users.

You may see it as just an annoyed driver, but distracted and aggressive driving kills.

notoriousDUG said:

Are you somehow under the impression that people in cars don't have to make concessions to people who drive like aggro idiots? 

Bikes are not special in the fact that people who drive like ding-dongs make our lives hard; drivers have to deal with that as well.

Chris LaFrombois (8.5 mi - o.w.) said:

Adam is pretty spot on actually. I'm saying that share the road goes both ways - that also encompasses aggressive driving AND cycling. As a user of the road (legally), should I have to go out of my way and perhaps even a less efficient way just to avoid aggressive drivers? Would it behoove me to do so? Perhaps. At the same time aggressive drivers are on every roadway in this city. Education goes both ways.

And to address Tankin-ridin' Ryan, I have become very reasonable and less prone to getting into arguments with drivers over small infractions.

In fact, in one instance, on Elston going northbound, just north of Logan (in front of the strip mall), I had a guy lay on his horn as I took the lane (well ahead of him, I did not cut him off) because there was a large construction obstacle in the bike lane. When I shifted back over, he was yelling through his window, so I gave him the finger (not the best choice). Once he got 50 more feet to stopped traffic, we had an exchange that got less heated. He thought I was going to be like "every other messenger cyclist weaving in and out of traffic", and I simply responded, that as a cyclist I have a legal right to take the lane when my safety was in question. We had a few more words (pleasant), settled down and shook hands. I think that guy now has a better view of cyclists and I've learned how to somewhat diffuse a situation

However, I do realize there are visceral reactions to situations that when adrenaline is involved.

Kevin C said:

While I appreciate the fact that you believe you know what everyone else is saying, it was really a question for Chris.

Adam Herstein said:

That's not what he's saying at all. His point was that saying "take a different road" is not a solution to aggressive driving.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on March 7, 2014 at 10:34am

So explain to me again how your yelling and spitting is not terribly wrong behavior?

I'm not arguing that cars and bikes are equal in either operator risk or potential damage. 

I am arguing that EVERYBODY on the road is inconvenienced by asshats.

I am arguing that there is no reason to not be civil most of the time.

Hey, people get pissed and act out, I would be lying if I said I have not lost it at a driver.  However it happens to me less than once a month; it seems to happen to you all the time.  I ride to work through the West Side everyday and I have a honk or close pass on a pretty much daily basis on a nice wide street, it's just a part of riding a bike in the city; just like people pulling out in front of you, cutting you off otherwise being dangerous is part of driving a car or walking in the city.

Yes, on the bike I am more at risk of injury than in a car but that's the choice I made.  I split the difference between taking the lane and the door zone to try and keep myself safe and also allow people an easy path buy me.  I often ride down Milwaukee through Wicker Park and I don't block the road when it's busy but traffic is faster than me, I adjust my speed, pay attention and let cars by riding in the bike lane near parked cars; is the a dooring risk?  Yes, but I am slowed down and paying attention so it's minimal.

If traffic scares you so much there is the chance that riding a bike is not for you.

Adam Herstein said:

Obviously the end goal here is for everyone (people in cars, on bikes, and walking) to act in a courteous and patient manner towards other road users. The fact that this is not currently the case is the reasoning behind many education and advocacy efforts.

notoriousDUG said:

Are you somehow under the impression that people in cars don't have to make concessions to people who drive like aggro idiots? 

Bikes are not special in the fact that people who drive like ding-dongs make our lives hard; drivers have to deal with that as well.

Chris LaFrombois (8.5 mi - o.w.) said:

Adam is pretty spot on actually. I'm saying that share the road goes both ways - that also encompasses aggressive driving AND cycling. As a user of the road (legally), should I have to go out of my way and perhaps even a less efficient way just to avoid aggressive drivers? Would it behoove me to do so? Perhaps. At the same time aggressive drivers are on every roadway in this city. Education goes both ways.

And to address Tankin-ridin' Ryan, I have become very reasonable and less prone to getting into arguments with drivers over small infractions.

In fact, in one instance, on Elston going northbound, just north of Logan (in front of the strip mall), I had a guy lay on his horn as I took the lane (well ahead of him, I did not cut him off) because there was a large construction obstacle in the bike lane. When I shifted back over, he was yelling through his window, so I gave him the finger (not the best choice). Once he got 50 more feet to stopped traffic, we had an exchange that got less heated. He thought I was going to be like "every other messenger cyclist weaving in and out of traffic", and I simply responded, that as a cyclist I have a legal right to take the lane when my safety was in question. We had a few more words (pleasant), settled down and shook hands. I think that guy now has a better view of cyclists and I've learned how to somewhat diffuse a situation

However, I do realize there are visceral reactions to situations that when adrenaline is involved.

Kevin C said:

While I appreciate the fact that you believe you know what everyone else is saying, it was really a question for Chris.

Adam Herstein said:

That's not what he's saying at all. His point was that saying "take a different road" is not a solution to aggressive driving.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on March 7, 2014 at 10:55am

I was actually referring to Adam about making a federal case about well...take your pick.

Chris LaFrombois (8.5 mi - o.w.) said:

Adam is pretty spot on actually. I'm saying that share the road goes both ways - that also encompasses aggressive driving AND cycling. As a user of the road (legally), should I have to go out of my way and perhaps even a less efficient way just to avoid aggressive drivers? Would it behoove me to do so? Perhaps. At the same time aggressive drivers are on every roadway in this city. Education goes both ways.

And to address Tankin-ridin' Ryan, I have become very reasonable and less prone to getting into arguments with drivers over small infractions.

In fact, in one instance, on Elston going northbound, just north of Logan (in front of the strip mall), I had a guy lay on his horn as I took the lane (well ahead of him, I did not cut him off) because there was a large construction obstacle in the bike lane. When I shifted back over, he was yelling through his window, so I gave him the finger (not the best choice). Once he got 50 more feet to stopped traffic, we had an exchange that got less heated. He thought I was going to be like "every other messenger cyclist weaving in and out of traffic", and I simply responded, that as a cyclist I have a legal right to take the lane when my safety was in question. We had a few more words (pleasant), settled down and shook hands. I think that guy now has a better view of cyclists and I've learned how to somewhat diffuse a situation

However, I do realize there are visceral reactions to situations that when adrenaline is involved.

Kevin C said:

While I appreciate the fact that you believe you know what everyone else is saying, it was really a question for Chris.

Adam Herstein said:

That's not what he's saying at all. His point was that saying "take a different road" is not a solution to aggressive driving.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tominator on April 22, 2014 at 5:52am

I think it's that you probably did a track stand waiting for the light to change. That infuriates drivers. They can't conceive that you are stopped but standind upright. I have to wave drivers at 4-ways to go because if they don't see your foot on the ground, they don't think you're stopping for them.

Not that I can do a "real" trackstand. Only a couple seconds.

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