Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kevin C Dormant on January 19, 2012 at 10:58am

Yipes. That could have been a lot worse. Thanks for being the crash test d Thanks for testing the hypothesis.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 19, 2012 at 11:50am

So here is a prime example of a bad lock up that somebody thinks is a good one.

On the surface it looks good but it's actually at risk.  The higher quality Abus chain is locked through the rear wheel and crank to the frame and the front wheel and frame are locked to the rack via a not so great On-guard lock.  Seems secure but in all reality that u-lock can be defeated with a bolt cutter and the lock body cuts very easily and defeating that lock means somebody can walk off with the bike cutting one lock.

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Permalink Reply by Joe Willis on January 21, 2012 at 8:53am

Could you send me some info on this? I could use it for this "How To" article.

Thanks,

Joe

2poler@gmail.com

notoriousDUG said:

So last night I got to attend a 'lock cutting party' hosted by a lock company rep and had a chance to damage a fair amount of locks of different brands and I thought I would share a little bit of what I learned with you kids here on The Chianlink.

The first, and most disturbing fact, is that if you lock your bike up outside there is NO 100% safe locking option because in the age of cordless angle grinders you have no hope unless you plan on carrying a lock that weighs more than you do.  Even the massive top of the line Kryptonite can be cut through in about a minute and a half; the Evo line in less than a minute.  Your lock is nothing more than a deterrent and it is less a matter of if it can be defeated but how long it takes to be defeated.  Apparently 3 minutes is about the maximum your average thief is going to spend dicking around trying to boost your bike so you want to aim at a lock solution that will hold up for over 3 minutes, which is harder than you would think...

So this guy,

Your basic cable lock can be cut in about 30 seconds with nothing more than a pair of simple wire cutters.  This applies to pretty much every average sized cable out there.  Bolt cutters it's not even a second.  Your secondary cable lock that you are using to secure your wheels?  Yeah, 30 seconds it's gone and so are your wheels...  The next step up is a shielded cable which cannot be cut with just wire cutters but is still no match for bolt cutters.  Anything with a cable is, in my opinion not even worth using in Chicago unless you feel like giving your bike away.

Above that you have chains.  Smaller chains, under 9mm, can be easily cut with average sized bolt cutters and the link often only has to be cut once because it is hardened to the point that it blows apart the link when one side is cut.  Over that size you need giant cutters but they can still be clipped, better chains take two cuts but lower quality ones that are not hardened as well can blow both links apart.  Interesting side note; chains with the Cordura cover anchored at the ends add an additional deterrent because it needs to be cut as well where ones that are not anchored the chain can just be pulled out.  One manufacturer is even selling one with an even tougher outer cover to add and extra bit of time to how ling it takes a thief to steal your bike.  Like anything else the grinder owns a chain, it takes less time to cut a chain than a lock and chains with mini u-locks are a target because the lock is easier to cut than the chain.  There is a big difference in the chains brand to brand to; certain manufactures have a tougher chain than the rest if you want to know what I feel is best message me and I'll tell you but I want to try and avoid bashing or pimping any brands here.

When it comes to u-locks there is a huge difference in locks.  I got to destroy a few brands of lock and I'm here to tell you there is a massive difference lock to lock.  I wanted to try and not get into brands but you're going to know what is what based on details of the locks so I;m just going to toss out some things I learned.

So one big myth is that a double dead bolt requires two cuts, this is flat out untrue of certain brands of locks.  You can twist them open after they are cut.  The twisting attack works surprisingly well on lower end locks and ones with only one dead bolt.  One brand of lock, while on par with others shackle wise, has a lock body that is surprisingly easy to cut.  Bigger is not always better, one manufacturers giant heavy lock cuts in equal time to a smaller, lighter, lock of better quality steel from another manufacturer, equal security but big weight penalty.

Long story short:

My opinion the best you can do for locking up your bike is either two high quality u-locks or a lock like the Abus Bordo.  Slightly below that is a pair of chains or a combination of a chain and a u-lock or Bordo.  Basically a single lock, no matter the lock, means a well equipped criminal can have your bike in under two minutes.

Also, interesting fact:  If you have an Abus lock you can order any Abus lock that uses the same series lock cylinder keyed to match your other lock(s).  How cool is that!?  I am dreaming of a day in my future where I only have one bike lock key!

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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 21, 2012 at 9:07am

It looks like an OnGuard Bulldog.  It's the lowest-level OnGuard U-lock and most have only a double-bolt locking system although some of the newer Bulldogs have the Quatro locking system now.

I wouldn't exactly call it a "poor" lock compared to many others out there although the PitBull or Brute would be a better choice as they don't cost much more although the weight penalty starts to go up.

I think Doug over-values the eficacy of the Abus compared to even the light-duty Bulldog U-lock.  The expense of the Abus locks is mainly for their convenience but I don't think they are any more secure as the low-end double-bolted U-locks like the Bulldog and nowhere near as hard to defeat as the Brute or PitBull IMHO.

Even a top of the line U-lock is cheese when it meets a grinder or a good hydraulic rebar cutter. 

notoriousDUG said:

So here is a prime example of a bad lock up that somebody thinks is a good one.

On the surface it looks good but it's actually at risk.  The higher quality Abus chain is locked through the rear wheel and crank to the frame and the front wheel and frame are locked to the rack via a not so great On-guard lock.  Seems secure but in all reality that u-lock can be defeated with a bolt cutter and the lock body cuts very easily and defeating that lock means somebody can walk off with the bike cutting one lock.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 21, 2012 at 11:32am

It is less that it is a horrible lock up and more that they are using the better of the two locks to secure parts to the bike when the easier to cut lock is securing the bike.

The Abus locks are much harder to defeat; I got to spend a night cutting and breaking locks from different manufacturers and, in my opinion, Abus makes a much harder to defeat lock in both the chain and u-lock variety.  It takes longer to cut an Abus of about the same size as it does a either a On-guard or Kryptonite with an angle grinder; I know this because we cut them all.  Their chains are also harder to cut with a bolt cutter and with a grinder compared to equal sized On-guard chains; we did not have a Kryptonite chain to test.  The shackle on the u-lock is more resistant to torsion compared to any lock of comparable size, the only one that even comes close in general is the Kryptonite NY lock.  You also cannot force them open with only a single cut which is something you can do on the On-guard locks and most Kryptonite locks.

James BlackHeron said:

It looks like an OnGuard Bulldog.  It's the lowest-level OnGuard U-lock and most have only a double-bolt locking system although some of the newer Bulldogs have the Quatro locking system now.

I wouldn't exactly call it a "poor" lock compared to many others out there although the PitBull or Brute would be a better choice as they don't cost much more although the weight penalty starts to go up.

I think Doug over-values the eficacy of the Abus compared to even the light-duty Bulldog U-lock.  The expense of the Abus locks is mainly for their convenience but I don't think they are any more secure as the low-end double-bolted U-locks like the Bulldog and nowhere near as hard to defeat as the Brute or PitBull IMHO.

Even a top of the line U-lock is cheese when it meets a grinder or a good hydraulic rebar cutter. 

notoriousDUG said:

So here is a prime example of a bad lock up that somebody thinks is a good one.

On the surface it looks good but it's actually at risk.  The higher quality Abus chain is locked through the rear wheel and crank to the frame and the front wheel and frame are locked to the rack via a not so great On-guard lock.  Seems secure but in all reality that u-lock can be defeated with a bolt cutter and the lock body cuts very easily and defeating that lock means somebody can walk off with the bike cutting one lock.

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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 21, 2012 at 11:41am

Gone in 30 seconds:

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 21, 2012 at 1:52pm

And what does that have to do with u-locks or chains?  The Bordo has a poorly designed link in that it can be cut easily in one direction but it's a trade off for the way the lock works. It is also much easier to cut a lock on the ground with your foot on it than it is to cut one hanging on the bike; that would not have happened as quick on a locked bike.

Several u-locks can be cut in the same amount of time it took to cut that Bordo.

If you want to post up videos and claim you know the good, the bad, the in and the out on locks but I'm the one who has actually cut and defeated the locks to see which ones are tougher.

James BlackHeron said:

Gone in 30 seconds:

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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 21, 2012 at 2:13pm

Locks  (u-locks, chains, or even the abus) are easier to cut on the bike than flopping around on the ground.  You just put your foot into it and the bike frame becomes your vise.  

My point is that your assertion that the folding Abus (any of the versions) are no better than the low-end OnGuard.  

An angle grinder would eat through both quickly if the thief wants your bike.   The Abus is a very convenient lock because of its folding nature and the ability to easily go through both the frame and the wheel and a bike rack.  But it is a bit costly. 

I disagree that the picture you posted is of "a prime example of a bad lock up" as you stated.  Yes, it could be better but it is still better than at least 80% of the bikes locked up even if you discount those "locked" with bike floss or doggie-chains that can be cut with a pair of 8" linesmans pliers. 

It is understood that you spent a night cutting a few different locks.  The pro thieves have been cutting locks for years.  They know all the tricks.  If the bike is worth it they'll get through any lock in <2 minutes -many in much less time than that.  I agree that putting two locks that must be cut to free the bikes is going to slow them down even more and hopefully it'll be enough of a discouragement to move onto a more-poorly locked bike.  That's about all you can hope for.

In this city I wouldn't leave any bike I cared about locked-up overnight or all day long at a high-crime area like an L-station.  Two good locks are a good idea and you are right that the bike in this picture would have been better off if was positioned so that both locks went around the bike rack so a thief needed to cut them both -or just the rack once.  I cut stuff for a living (back before the banksters destroyed the economy)  and know that steel is really not that tough when you have the right tool.

No lock is "safe"  -some are just more un-safe than others.

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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 21, 2012 at 2:29pm

Moar vid-E-ohz

If I were a POS bike thief I'd have me one of these.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 21, 2012 at 3:35pm

The Bordo is not the Abus I think is a better lock...

It's not a bad lock up it is just a false sense of security, the chain is doing next to nothing when it comes to combating theft of the entire bike.

James BlackHeron said:

Locks  (u-locks, chains, or even the abus) are easier to cut on the bike than flopping around on the ground.  You just put your foot into it and the bike frame becomes your vise.  

My point is that your assertion that the folding Abus (any of the versions) are no better than the low-end OnGuard.  

An angle grinder would eat through both quickly if the thief wants your bike.   The Abus is a very convenient lock because of its folding nature and the ability to easily go through both the frame and the wheel and a bike rack.  But it is a bit costly. 

I disagree that the picture you posted is of "a prime example of a bad lock up" as you stated.  Yes, it could be better but it is still better than at least 80% of the bikes locked up even if you discount those "locked" with bike floss or doggie-chains that can be cut with a pair of 8" linesmans pliers. 

It is understood that you spent a night cutting a few different locks.  The pro thieves have been cutting locks for years.  They know all the tricks.  If the bike is worth it they'll get through any lock in <2 minutes -many in much less time than that.  I agree that putting two locks that must be cut to free the bikes is going to slow them down even more and hopefully it'll be enough of a discouragement to move onto a more-poorly locked bike.  That's about all you can hope for.

In this city I wouldn't leave any bike I cared about locked-up overnight or all day long at a high-crime area like an L-station.  Two good locks are a good idea and you are right that the bike in this picture would have been better off if was positioned so that both locks went around the bike rack so a thief needed to cut them both -or just the rack once.  I cut stuff for a living (back before the banksters destroyed the economy)  and know that steel is really not that tough when you have the right tool.

No lock is "safe"  -some are just more un-safe than others.

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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 21, 2012 at 3:53pm

It's keeping the rear wheel from being stolen -but that's about it.  It can be removed with ease later once a thief cuts the U-lock and removes the entire bike to a safe-secure place to work on it at his leisure. 

 

But wheel theft is not a small problem here in Chicago.  Walk by any L station and 20% or more of the bikes are missing at least one wheel -more if you walk by the Logan Blue-line stop (the bike rack of broken dreams.)

 

But still it would be better if both locks were around the bike rack.  This is why I prefer U-racks to the stupid S racks.  It's much easier to get two U-locks around two wheels, the frame and the bike rack.

 

But still, one cut on the rack and kicking it to offset the cut will free the bike in under a minute.

 

There is no safety from bike thieves unless you have the bike inside your locked house and are home guarding it actively with a shotgun.  Even then, if a thief wants it badly enough they're going to get it.  Regardless of Miller Decision the city of Chicago is still a criminal-protection job-safety zone ^tm

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Permalink Reply by Matt M. 18.5KM on September 4, 2014 at 4:16pm

ABUS 14KS compared to a pencil in my apartment....happily impressed...

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