Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sharon Heil on September 27, 2013 at 3:04am

Girl, wait until you turn 55 and you become invisible to the males of the world. I'm in excellent physical condition, stylish and keep my hair blond (barely noticeable under a helmet) and would welcome justan appreciative glance once in a while.

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Permalink Reply by Michelle on September 27, 2013 at 3:10am

So you're saying you would enjoy feeling unsafe/threatened on a regular basis? ... I just can't. This isn't "appreciative" and its not "a compliment." It's freaking terrifying.

Sharon Heil said:

Girl, wait until you turn 55 and you become invisible to the males of the world. I'm in excellent physical condition, stylish and keep my hair blond (barely noticeable under a helmet) and would welcome justan appreciative glance once in a while.

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Permalink Reply by Bez on September 27, 2013 at 3:11am

FWIW, I get this too and I'm a fairly large male who rides aggressively.  I'd imagine you probably get it a bit more often because of the reasons you stated though.  Most disrespectful people are cowards at heart and won't confront someone who they think may actually respond.

yai danche said:

I hate it when motorists yell at me because I'm "in the way."  Meanwhile I see plenty of male cyclists doing stupid shit, but I only get yelled at because I'm 5'2" woman who presumably won't pull any punches.  Oh and by "in the way", I mean I was in front of them waiting for an opening to make a left turn and even though we were both able to make the turn before the light changed, I was still "in the way."

Michelle said:

Oh I wasn't really. But some other people might suggest it.

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Permalink Reply by Michelle Loomis on September 27, 2013 at 3:24am

I have no idea what it would be like to be 55, I will find out soon enough. All I know is that all of the creepy/strange comments and behaviours came to an abrupt halt as soon as I advertised/showed up with a boyfriend.

Sharon Heil said:

Girl, wait until you turn 55 and you become invisible to the males of the world. I'm in excellent physical condition, stylish and keep my hair blond (barely noticeable under a helmet) and would welcome justan appreciative glance once in a while.

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Permalink Reply by Heather on September 27, 2013 at 3:49am

Catcalls and being invisible after 55 are just two sides of the same coin--how women are mostly noticed and valued for their perceived attractiveness and ignored if they are not perceived as such (not that I don't think older women are attractive, but our youth-obsessed culture largely does not).

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Permalink Reply by Mark on September 27, 2013 at 4:04am

I just wanted to say, "Thanks" to the ladies who have taken the time to respond. As well as a future "Thanks" to those who respond in the future.

All people, but in this specific case, all men, aren't raised the same way. Growing up without a father, my male role model was my Grandfather.  He instilled in me to ALWAYS be a gentleman. I have come to realize, that occasionally, being an old fashioned gentleman, can come across as very sexist, despite how good your intentions are. 

Knowledge of differences, is EVERYTHING. In both cultural differences, as well as gender differences.  If I understand how a specific instance makes a different sex, or race, feel, I can react in a way that respects the difference.

For example.  If I am walking down the street with my best friend, who is a very large, (6' 4" 350lb ) black man, and walking in the other direction, is a single female, giving her more space, is understanding that she may be feeling something, that a man walking in the other direction, might not be feeling. This is respecting our differences.

With the help of the women in this forum, now I can also understand, and hopefully react in a positive way, to things that make women uncomfortable when biking.

For example, Shoaling.  Which I didn't even know what it was, until I started reading the forum here.  If a woman passes me, and is riding faster than I am, I  adjust my riding momentarily, to allow her to gain enough of a lead, to not have to worry about me being right behind her.  If we happen to meet at a light, I make sure to pull to the side far enough, to give her plenty of space.  When the light changes, I again give enough time to allow her a comfortable lead, with the idea that she is biking faster, that lead will just continue to grow.  Do I do this with men?  No.   Because as men, I think our comfort zone is much smaller.  Since riding is like therapy to me,  I would feel horrible knowing that something I did, took away from someone's enjoyment when riding. 

As for the bike shops that don't know how to treat their customers with respect. The most powerful answer to that, is spending your money in a shop that does.  I really liked the answer given by the shop employee who said, " I find out what my customers needs are first, and then show them options".  THAT is the kind of bike show I want to go to.  I am a newbie to riding.  I am also a knowledge sponge.  Going to the bike shop for me, is like going to the library.  I want to learn, I want to know.  Teach me, and I will come back and spend money. Don't, and I will take my business elsewhere.   It would piss me off, if the bike mechanic treated me in a condescending way.  It pisses me off when the sales people try to constantly upsell me.  Especially if they can't tell me why the most expensive product is better than any other. I can imagine, being treated differently, because you are female, would only piss you off even more.  It is asshatery at it's best.

However, and I know this hasn't been brought up, and I will get roasted for it, but it needs to be said.  Ladies, you can't have it both ways. Women will never get equality, if they continue to prefer to be treated in old fashioned ways.  As long as women continue to favor men who buy them drinks at a bar, pay for dinner on a date, open their car door, and help them with their coat, etc.  ( all of which I do, My wife hasn't opened a car door in 15 years ) Until society accepts stay at home fathers, as well as stay at home mom's, and our court system quits turning men into a walking wallet, especially when kids are involved, in divorce proceedings.   Men are going to continue with old fashioned gender identified roles.  Paired with misunderstanding of how a woman may feel differently about a given situation, and you have a recipe for being unintentionally offensive.  I am not trying to rationalize blatant sexism, in any way.  That is just plain WRONG.  Cat calls, Leering looks, condescending talk to a female, ALL WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.  A guy pulling over to help with a flat, because he may question if you know how to fix it yourself, although wrong, should be given a little forgiveness.     

 

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Permalink Reply by Caiken on September 27, 2013 at 4:08am

Oh man, I didn't even have to go through all of the pages to happen upon the first obnoxious misogynistic mansplaining. Good to know that bike culture will continue to be patriarchal forever.

but really, I mean, look at this thread. I hope that ATA's education component uses its advocacy role to fight the rampant misogyny in the bike world, but even in an INTERNET THREAD, asking for opinions from NOT DUDES, we have tons of dudes telling us what is good for us and giving us advice. thanks guys.

I really do think the first reply would be a nice start to helping people stop and think before they engage in oppressive behaviors--the shoaling thing makes me crazy in general, but yeah, especially when you are a middle-aged dude on a hybrid huffing and puffing to swerve around me. I guess I'm used to biding my time, but maybe you could make a thing wrapping this in just, you know, common respect for folks and thinking about others? I don't know.

sorry, I'm just mad from my eleven billionth street assault from riding in today. PS favorite one was from the passenger window of a CPD cruiser on 18th and Ashland.

Mark said:

I just wanted to say, "Thanks" to the ladies who have taken the time to respond. As well as a future "Thanks" to those who respond in the future.

All people, but in this specific case, all men, aren't raised the same way. Growing up without a father, my male role model was my Grandfather.  He instilled in me to ALWAYS be a gentleman. I have come to realize, that occasionally, being an old fashioned gentleman, can come across as very sexist, despite how good your intentions are. 

Knowledge of differences, is EVERYTHING. In both cultural differences, as well as gender differences.  If I understand how a specific instance makes a different sex, or race, feel, I can react in a way that respects the difference.

For example.  If I am walking down the street with my best friend, who is a very large, (6' 4" 350lb ) black man, and walking in the other direction, is a single female, giving her more space, is understanding that she may be feeling something, that a man walking in the other direction, might not be feeling. This is respecting our differences.

With the help of the women in this forum, now I can also understand, and hopefully react in a positive way, to things that make women uncomfortable when biking.

For example, Shoaling.  Which I didn't even know what it was, until I started reading the forum here.  If a woman passes me, and is riding faster than I am, I  adjust my riding momentarily, to allow her to gain enough of a lead, to not have to worry about me being right behind her.  If we happen to meet at a light, I make sure to pull to the side far enough, to give her plenty of space.  When the light changes, I again give enough time to allow her a comfortable lead, with the idea that she is biking faster, that lead will just continue to grow.  Do I do this with men?  No.   Because as men, I think our comfort zone is much smaller.  Since riding is like therapy to me,  I would feel horrible knowing that something I did, took away from someone's enjoyment when riding. 

As for the bike shops that don't know how to treat their customers with respect. The most powerful answer to that, is spending your money in a shop that does.  I really liked the answer given by the shop employee who said, " I find out what my customers needs are first, and then show them options".  THAT is the kind of bike show I want to go to.  I am a newbie to riding.  I am also a knowledge sponge.  Going to the bike shop for me, is like going to the library.  I want to learn, I want to know.  Teach me, and I will come back and spend money. Don't, and I will take my business elsewhere.   It would piss me off, if the bike mechanic treated me in a condescending way.  It pisses me off when the sales people try to constantly upsell me.  Especially if they can't tell me why the most expensive product is better than any other. I can imagine, being treated differently, because you are female, would only piss you off even more.  It is asshatery at it's best.

However, and I know this hasn't been brought up, and I will get roasted for it, but it needs to be said.  Ladies, you can't have it both ways. Women will never get equality, if they continue to prefer to be treated in old fashioned ways.  As long as women continue to favor men who buy them drinks at a bar, pay for dinner on a date, open their car door, and help them with their coat, etc.  ( all of which I do, My wife hasn't opened a car door in 15 years ) Until society accepts stay at home fathers, as well as stay at home mom's, and our court system quits turning men into a walking wallet, especially when kids are involved, in divorce proceedings.   Men are going to continue with old fashioned gender identified roles.  Paired with misunderstanding of how a woman may feel differently about a given situation, and you have a recipe for being unintentionally offensive.  I am not trying to rationalize blatant sexism, in any way.  That is just plain WRONG.  Cat calls, Leering looks, condescending talk to a female, ALL WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.  A guy pulling over to help with a flat, because he may question if you know how to fix it yourself, although wrong, should be given a little forgiveness.     

 

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Permalink Reply by Heather on September 27, 2013 at 4:23am

+1 to Caiken. And the idea that "women continue to favor men who buy them drinks" etc and that men need to be treated better to make women equal is totally offensive. I'm at work, where statistics show that I still make significantly less than my male colleagues, so I don't have time to write a paragraph condensing Feminism 101 right now.

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Permalink Reply by Julia 3.5/7.5 mi on September 27, 2013 at 4:24am

Yuck. I've gotten a hard sell at Performance on why I should switch out my pedals, cleats, and shoes (when I came in to get a pair that was a size up), but I'm not one to give in to pushy salespeople. The guy insisted I should be riding with Look or Speedplay cleats instead of SPD. I ended up buying exactly what I wanted in the first place, so moot point, but his "You should really..." attitude was annoying.

Did you tell them, either on your way out or via email/corporate that you left specifically because of that? It'd be a good teaching moment for them. If anything, it's probably hurting their sales if they continue these sorry assumption-based techniques. If I were a manager, I'd certainly want to know about my salespeople doing this.

Becky Lomax said:

Went to Performance on Halsted and told them I was looking into a new commuter bike. Guy walked me to the back of the shop and showed me a $160 Schwinn cruiser and told me it had all the features I could possibly need. I left.

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Permalink Reply by Gort 12-mile Pinklegneep on September 27, 2013 at 4:28am

You can cram it both ways. 

Mark said:

However, and I know this hasn't been brought up, and I will get roasted for it, but it needs to be said.  Ladies, you can't have it both ways. Women will never get equality, if they continue to prefer to be treated in old fashioned ways.  As long as women continue to favor men who buy them drinks at a bar, pay for dinner on a date, open their car door, and help them with their coat, etc.  ( all of which I do, My wife hasn't opened a car door in 15 years ) Until society accepts stay at home fathers, as well as stay at home mom's, and our court system quits turning men into a walking wallet, especially when kids are involved, in divorce proceedings. 

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Permalink Reply by Sydney Barton on September 27, 2013 at 4:31am

+1

Heather said:

Catcalls and being invisible after 55 are just two sides of the same coin--how women are mostly noticed and valued for their perceived attractiveness and ignored if they are not perceived as such (not that I don't think older women are attractive, but our youth-obsessed culture largely does not).

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Permalink Reply by Mark on September 27, 2013 at 4:31am

I didn't say men needed to be treated better to make women equal.  I said that if gender equality is the goal, then we need to treat genders equally in all ways.  Our society as a whole doesn't do this.  We continue to reinforce old fashioned, out dated, gender roles.  How will that ever create gender equality?
 
Heather said:

+1 to Caiken. And the idea that "women continue to favor men who buy them drinks" etc and that men need to be treated better to make women equal is totally offensive. 

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