Hey Chainlink, know what I think is lame?

When a website that claims to be promoting local cycling in the city of Chicago has a banner ad for a site which is one of the many internet discount outlets that make it hard for local bike shops.

Way to go Chainlink, bravo.  Is the advertising dollar worth making things harder on the local shops here in Chicago?

Is this site about serving the local community or is it about being a profit center for it's owner?

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 2, 2012 at 5:03am

That is totally your right but it still makes me sad.

But then it makes me sad to see people buy anything online vs. a brick and mortar store.  It also makes me sad to see people shop by price and nothing else.

in it to win it said:

I have an obligation to get my bike stuff at the best price possible.  If BIKE NASHBAR or BIKESDIRECT get me the same product at 1/2 the cost, it is my obligation to me to keep my $$ in my account.

See, you and I disagree about what obligation means.



notoriousDUG said:

...a local bike shop.

Yes, obviously, I have a vested interest in local bike shops, specifically the one I work at, but this is nothing new.  Even before I worked in the industry I have been a proponent of shopping via a local shop vs. online purchases.  I order almost nothing, bike related or otherwise, online because I think of it as detrimental to local businesses and to a small extent the local economy. Buying local is, in my opinion, 'the right thing to do' with your purchasing power.

I also feel that cyclists, as part of the small, often under serviced, community have an obligation to try and support local shops.  By extension The Chainlink, as a online cycling community has a certain obligation to help out local shops over out of state online businesses.

Michael A said:

As HE uses the site for free advertising to promote............

Permalink Reply by jennifer james on January 2, 2012 at 5:37am

 I hesitate to comment on this thread. Please don't bash the Rapid on Halstead. We go to Irv's often- (in Pilsen) and send any friends looking for great kid bike decorations there too. The arrival of the Rapid Transit marked a major change in the University business district. Chris and Justyna hosted a meeting there last winter that marked the first small crucial change in our Alderman's understanding of how bikes could benefit our ward and now look- we have a protected lane on 18th and thanks to Sram and Bikes Belong Ald. Solis has been to Amsterdam. We need that shop in our neighborhood as there are things there I can't get easily at Irv's.  Outside of Peter White for dynos- even our kids ride with them- we shop totally local because the money stays here and we need the shops--from Blue Island to Rodgers Park. Rapid has ordered from Peter White for us as well and given us the same prices. Blue City Cycles and Working Bikes also hosted Streets for Cycling meetings in this area.

Most other local shops can tell you they see us there as well. Rapid on North fixed a flat for me for nothing last summer while I was on the Critical Lass. 

As the Mayor gets more infrastructure in, these shops will be even more important neighborhood spots for helping people new to riding get questions answered and get what they need. It costs small shops more to be real people in a shop and they give far more to our city in the end then the internet stores.

(Many Thanks to Julie for the Chainlink!)

Permalink Reply by David on January 2, 2012 at 5:44am

Yes, I understand your points, but do you have any thoughts/insights/ideas on why this is?  That was my question after all.  I understand the reasoning that might go into a shop owner not carrying these items, the question is what is different between the shop here and the equivalent shop in other cities.  

Is the difference on the demand side because the cycling community in Chicago is so different than the cycling community in many non-US cities?  Or is the difference on the supply side because Chicago LBS owners can't afford to hold onto low-volume inventory items for long periods?  Or is it perhaps something to do with the tax structure?

Again, the question isn't "why don't shops here carry these items?".  I'm not complaining about it.  The question is "what is different here that leads to shops not carrying these items even though these items are carried in shops in many other cities I've been to".  

notoriousDUG said:

There are shops that have stuff like that and they try very hard to have that stuff in stock but here is the issue:

It does not sell.

Stuff like that hangs on the wall for months and months and many shops cannot always afford to have inventory that does not move out the door.  It would be great to offer every retail option out there for all sorts of gear but it is not a financial reality for most shops.

I think there is one thing it is important to realize; as members of the cycling community and active riders we here all have a very skewed perception of bike shop clientele.  Again, I cannot speak for all shops but I can speak for where I work.  I would say that 75% of the year or more the vast majority of  our customers are not really very active cyclists.  Oh sure, you see a lot of bikes on the street but how many of them are 'into' bikes or care about bikes, the community or anything beyond getting to work?  Just look at the membership on this site!  The Chainlink has close to 6,500 members but how many of them do you see posting actively?  I bet that number is under 100.

It's hard to wrap your mind around but even though there are a ton of cyclists here int he city the number of cyclists who are 4 season commuting and using a bike for utilitarian means are still a very small group.  When I started working at bike shops I imagined meeting tons of people just like me who biked everywhere and were really dedicated to it...

Yeah, not so much. It's a small portion, a third or less, who are the people looking for commuter type stuff like lap top bags or nice fenders so with a limited budget and limited space guess what gets cut?

Permalink Reply by Adam "Cezar" Jenkins on January 2, 2012 at 6:14am

I understand your sentiment Dug, but the way you said it was assholish and trollish. It's full of anger, sarcasm, and unfair accusations. 

I had thought better of you. I really did.

I think you owe an apology to Julie. You could have emailed her and asked instead of trolling your way about it. I think she would have changed it for you, or eased your concerns. Even publicly you could have been tactful about it, but you weren't, you were and ass.

I am seriously disappointed in you.

Permalink Reply by Bernard Joseph Hannigan on January 2, 2012 at 6:16am

Jennifer, I was not bashing Rapid, I was simply sharing my unfortunate experience of dealing with them.

jennifer james said:

 I hesitate to comment on this thread. Please don't bash the Rapid on Halstead. We go to Irv's often- (in Pilsen) and send any friends looking for great kid bike decorations there too. The arrival of the Rapid Transit marked a major change in the University business district. Chris and Justyna hosted a meeting there last winter that marked the first small crucial change in our Alderman's understanding of how bikes could benefit our ward and now look- we have a protected lane on 18th and thanks to Sram and Bikes Belong Ald. Solis has been to Amsterdam. We need that shop in our neighborhood as there are things there I can't get easily at Irv's.  Outside of Peter White for dynos- even our kids ride with them- we shop totally local because the money stays here and we need the shops--from Blue Island to Rodgers Park. Rapid has ordered from Peter White for us as well and given us the same prices. Blue City Cycles and Working Bikes also hosted Streets for Cycling meetings in this area.

Most other local shops can tell you they see us there as well. Rapid on North fixed a flat for me for nothing last summer while I was on the Critical Lass. 

As the Mayor gets more infrastructure in, these shops will be even more important neighborhood spots for helping people new to riding get questions answered and get what they need. It costs small shops more to be real people in a shop and they give far more to our city in the end then the internet stores.

(Many Thanks to Julie for the Chainlink!)

Permalink Reply by Craig S. on January 2, 2012 at 6:48am

I always like it when Dug posts.  The pot gets stirred and I typically agree with Dug on a lot of topics.  

Regarding the ratio of members who post on the forum to the number of Chainlink members; it is always the same people posting and then any type of topic thread usually degenerates into an internet fight which is fun to witness but also a big waste of time.

I'd post my irrational thoughts more often if there were more topics concerning bacon and cocktails.

Carry on!

Permalink Reply by Joel on January 2, 2012 at 6:50am

When all other factors are equal, price tends to be the deciding one.  I feel a local shop can provide a few important advantages,

1. Immediacy: walk out with the product in minutes

2. Service: recommendations, installation, tuning

3. Trying it: you can actually handle the product to check it out

Of course, they don't always provide these.  If the product isn't in stock, they have to order it, call me, and then I get to go pick it up.  If I order online, it ships to my door and saves me time.  Service?  For some things it really matters.  Getting a bike properly setup and fit is important.  Installing an accessory?  Usually less so -- especially since it is rarely free and something I can do myself.  It is easier to compare headlights online and they are trivial to install.  There are some things that you really need to check out in person: clothes, bags, helmets, and probably others.  Physical stores clearly win out here, unless of course they don't have anything in stock.  

So if people are looking for nice commuter stuff, what do they do?  You say it isn't possible for the stores to keep stuff in stock, so the store loses their only real advantages over online retailers -- with or without cost savings.  The store is reduced to a middle man for a online store.  

notoriousDUG said:

But then it makes me sad to see people buy anything online vs. a brick and mortar store.  It also makes me sad to see people shop by price and nothing else.

Permalink Reply by Zoetrope on January 2, 2012 at 7:12am

Yeah, depending on how you look at it, it can take some balls to risk yours and the shop you work at's reputation with starting a thread as banal as this.  It's just a typical inflammatory internet message board post designed to enrage it's readers, and at best an attempt to drive some business to his boss' hurting shop.          

The only thing that's sad here is that I'm posting in this thread.  In a time when finding a job is at one of the hardest in history, dug attempted to construct a flimsy argument about how we should all buy our cycling gear at LBS' despite their abnormally high prices, and feel bad about ourselves when we don't.  His evidence that buying solely from LBS' is best for us and the city goes no deeper than some vague utopian ideal.    

I would like to think dug isn't a troll and is merely clueless on how to frame a rational argument, but as others have said, this is just more of the same I've seen from him since I joined this site.  

Steel Driver said:

 Thanks to DUG for the courage to post this thread.  He has inadvertently provided an important PSA, illuminating our community of the opportunity to properly support local bike driving, AKA Chainlink.  I think I ran a stop sign in that last sentence.

Permalink Reply by Joe Sak on January 2, 2012 at 7:18am

A lot of people, especially Julie, work very hard to keep this site free and relevant for us. Maybe local shops like Rapid Transit would like to sponsor her efforts, so she doesn't have to resort to ads from cheap online anti-LBS services, and local shops can keep a voice here.

Not only does Julie, with little computer knowledge, work extra hard on this web site (she has advisors and help with the technical detail) but she works hard on real-life events that keep us hanging out as well. And she does it on top of a full time job.

Volunteering alone is hard, so I can't imagine being the president of a group with close to 7,000 members and managing all the details that go along with it. Your opinion about supporting local business is totally valid, but with all due respect, I think anyone unhappy with how Julie gets financial support should be ready to put their money where their mouth is.

But hey, maybe this has already been said. Cheers and happy new year to all!

Permalink Reply by shar on January 2, 2012 at 7:36am

+1

Joe Sak said:

A lot of people, especially Julie, work very hard to keep this site free and relevant for us. Maybe local shops like Rapid Transit would like to sponsor her efforts, so she doesn't have to resort to ads from cheap online anti-LBS services, and local shops can keep a voice here.

Not only does Julie, with little computer knowledge, work extra hard on this web site (she has advisors and help with the technical detail) but she works hard on real-life events that keep us hanging out as well. And she does it on top of a full time job.

Volunteering alone is hard, so I can't imagine being the president of a group with close to 7,000 members and managing all the details that go along with it. Your opinion about supporting local business is totally valid, but with all due respect, I think anyone unhappy with how Julie gets financial support should be ready to put their money where their mouth is.

But hey, maybe this has already been said. Cheers and happy new year to all!

Permalink Reply by in it to win it 8.0 mi on January 2, 2012 at 7:39am

I don't think you read the post correctly.  SAME product at 1/2 the cost.  And, I'm buying from another US shop.  I have friends and bike shops in IL, TX, FL.  Am I screwing my FL bike shop when I buy from a shop here?



Daniel G said:

Your enthusiasm for this "obligation", as you describe it, will not make you (or anyone you know) wealthy. Go ahead and watch your neighborhood fall apart as local businesses shutter their doors one-by-one and tax revenues spiral. And better pray that your treasured globalized economy is able to keep your millions of tractor-trailers full of plastic crap on the interstates when gasoline hits nine dollars. Your attitude is pessimistic conservatism and nothing more. Citizens protect and support their neighbors. Consumers pursue aggressively their so-called obligation to sit on their pile of greenbacks and jealously guard it against all invasion. Unless you are so foolish as to be actually waiting for the money you send to Bentonville, AR to trickle back down to Logan Square, this is not an economic philosophy. Just short-sighted selfishness.

in it to win it said:

I have an obligation to get my bike stuff at the best price possible.  If BIKE NASHBAR or BIKESDIRECT get me the same product at 1/2 the cost, it is my obligation to me to keep my $$ in my account.

See, you and I disagree about what obligation means.

Permalink Reply by Joel on January 2, 2012 at 8:02am

I understand the dilemma very well, and my point is that local bike shops have to compete somehow because they aren't going to be able to do it on price and stock alone.  

Being able to compete with the selection of Amazon is going to be nearly impossible for any local retailer, even a huge one, so the local places are going to have to compete in other ways -- my original point.  If a huge, big box-sized store were to open, would it make people happy?  A place large enough to compete with the e-tailers in terms of selection and prices?  A Home Depot of bikes.  There might only be one or two in the city because it takes a lot of space and can serve a wide area.  Because the prices are low, it might really hurt some of the smaller local business -- but remember, this giant is still local even if none of the other locals can compete on selection or price.  Would you be happy?  Or would people complain that this giant store killed off a bunch of small local bike shops?   


h' said:

Well, I think the (seemingly basic?) point is being missed here and elsewhere that the reason independent shops can't keep the sort of accessory inventory that chains and online sources can is that they aren't able to come anywhere near the necessary volume needed to be able to do so.

I know just wishing for it is not going to make it so, as most people posting here would clearly not be willing to spend a penny more than they have to, but it's not rocket science to see that local shops would be able to do higher volume and thus offer a wider selection and lower prices if more folks made an effort to purchase there and the percentage of good purchased by Chicagoland cyclists from national chains and e-tailers were less.

And this gets back to the central question of how our buying decisions determine the options that are ultimately available to us locally. 

I'd be interested in an informed response David's question as to why independent shops in other countries seem better able to offer a selection of accessories.

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