Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by william on September 21, 2013 at 8:56am

I think Mark and Christine's comments are quite telling; you both have obviously never driven large trucks or had delivery/messenger jobs. You both seem out of touch. 

I've driven trucks and most of the time the best parking option is a compromise. If you think the city will exponentially expand the loading zones to meet the demand for every single business address that receives delivery (which is basically all of 'em), your perspective is far from the reality of the situation. I'm all for more loading zones, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon (and I'm especially for more parking enforcement of these zones so that they are not stolen by lazy latte zombies that need their fat and high fructose corn syrup and caffeine dose). 

If you think that making all city-wide deliveries in the middle of the night is even practical, then you're even more out of touch with the massive day-to-day operations that keep our city alive. And if you think that most of these jobs are "corporate" then, well, you really dont know what you're taking about. 

honestly, both of you need to get off your high horse and give the workers a break. we're working as hard as we can, as fast as we can, and trying to do with with as little interruption as possible. Have some empathy. Not everyone works in a cubicle. Some people have to move heavy shit around as fast as possible within the constrains of traffic. Compromise is part of life in the big city. 

And Mark. Chill with the histrionics. Your last post seems like a 7th grader's Youtube comment. Not exactly flattering, y'know? 

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Permalink Reply by Thomas Bruzan on September 21, 2013 at 9:04am

Not just the businesses, residences too.
william said:

I think Mark and Christine's comments are quite telling; you both have obviously never driven large trucks or had delivery/messenger jobs. You both seem out of touch. 

I've driven trucks and most of the time the best parking option is a compromise. If you think the city will exponentially expand the loading zones to meet the demand for every single business address that receives delivery (which is basically all of 'em), your perspective is far from the reality of the situation. 

If you think that making all city-wide deliveries in the middle of the night is even practical, then you're even more out of touch with the massive day-to-day operations that keep our city alive. 

honestly, both of you need to get off your high horse and give the workers a break. we're working as hard as we can, as fast as we can, and trying to do with with as little interruption as possible. Have some empathy. Not everyone works in a cubicle. Some people have to move heavy shit around as fast as possible. 

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on September 21, 2013 at 11:07am

So because I am sticking to my opinion and challenging what you say I am an 'Emperor' of the forum and some kind of a bully?  What about you continuing to disagree with me, how is that different?  Not agreeing with you, or anyone else, and continuing to argue my side of it is not being a bully; it is standing up for my opinion just like you are standing up for yours.  Do you seriously believe that me not agreeing with you and continuing to argue my point when you continue to argue yours is me bullying you?

Back to the issue; how and where do you ride that you round a corner into the back of a truck and have to merge out that fast?  Is it really that hard for you to merge into traffic?  How slow do you ride?

I ride a big heavy bike fairly slow all over the city every day; I am through some of the most congested areas in the city multiple times a week and I have zero issues getting around or dealing with the trucks that are making deliveries in the area but not everyone rides the same.

Listen, I get it, you feel unsafe like that and you seem to be a real stickler for the law and you think that is worth making other peoples lives much harder.  I don't feel it is a danger and I bend the rules of the road myself so why should I not let some poor delivery guy do it?  As much as I would rather have a clear bike lane I'm OK with dealing with a little inconvenience to make somebody's life easier easier.

Also the restrictions you talk about drop more than 4 hours out of the day to deliver...

Mark said:

Well, Emperor Dug has spoken.  Might as well just lock and delete this thread.  God forbid corporate America is to be inconvenienced in any way. 20 hours a day to deliver isn't enough.  They need all 24. If you turn a corner, and there in your immediate path is the back of a UPS truck, Just stick your arm out, and merge into traffic.  Those cab drivers wont run into you. That guy on his cell phone, will certainly see you, and slow down to let you merge.  Chicago rush hour motorists are all absolutely obedient to the the laws of the rode.  Your just "Scared".  It will be fine. There is nothing to worry about.  They only painted those bike lanes on the road, because they had extra paint, and wanted the city workers to have something to do.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on September 21, 2013 at 11:32am

They are not the same, even though there is room on the road unless it is stripped with another lane there is not actually a lane there.  In other words lots of streets that cars treat like they have two lanes of travel only actually have one and people are driving somewhere that is not actually a lane.

You don't want to talk about how much extra room would have to be added to a loading zone for trucks but that one thing right there is the whole issue; the amount of parking it would remove from a busy commercial zone. 

Let's use Wicker Park as an example: You're average UPS truck is going to need 2 cars worth of space, possibly more depending on the specific truck.  It makes deliveries all up and down the streets there; there would need to be loading zones on every block. 

A food service truck is going to be 2-3 cars long and require extra room for the ramp or lift gate they load/unload with. A truck like that stops at every restaurant in the area several times a week if not every day; now that adds up to 4 spaces gone for each loading zone just on size but then you also need the room to maneuver a truck that size into a parking spot which means the truck is going to have to encroach on the other side of the road and you also now have a large vehicle with limited visibility backing up in the bike lane! Sounds not so safe for anyone to me...

Now you get to the beer truck or the freight truck dropping bikes of at Rapid Transit...  Well even a short trailer is going to be 30' which is 3 cars gone without taking the tractor into consideration.  Beer trucks are even longer, usually a 40' or longer trailer.  Neither of those are capable of backing into a spot without almost double the clear space or getting into oncoming traffic; some of them can't even make some side street turns and have no hope of getting into an alley.

So yeah, in order to get the space you want we would be talking about removing at least half the street parking on Damn, North and Milwaukee in Wicker Park; you think it's hard to find a spot now?  And on top of all that it makes for less safe streets because of the trucks parking.

Christine said:

Dug, our example situations are practically identical. In mine, there are two lanes, one of which is blocked by a delivery truck; in yours, the 'shoulder' which pretty much has room for the truck, is blocked. Your attempt to condescend with a remark on my comprehension of the situation is met with chuckles.

The solution to this issue has already been stated. Currently, there are safe routes for all four parties at issue: the vehicles have a driving lane, bicyclists have a biking lane, there is a parking lane for cars, and there are loading zones for trucks within that parking lane.

If these loading zones are not large enough, then the delivery companies need to discuss this with the business owners on that block together with the city to figure out a better arrangement. Those zones that exist already should not be put to waste simply because they need to be a few feet (assumption) longer.

The only con I can think of off the top of my head to this is that those few feet might cause that block to lose a parking spot. Parking throughout the city is an ongoing problem and a huge sore spot for everyone, including people who are against biking lanes, so I don't really want to go into that part of the discussion because it will go off-topic. Personally, I don't think one lost parking spot is a huge loss. It's impossible to find a parking spot in Wicker Park anyway, with or without biking lanes, loading zones, or hell, fire hydrants.

This option allows for everyone on the road to be safe. Drivers don't have to worry about if/when that bicyclist in the bike lane is going to try to merge. Bicyclists don't have to worry about whether the driver sees them and if they'll let them in. It allows delivery trucks to follow the parking laws and not be in anyone's way. It allows businesses to still get their packages at the time they need them. Vehicles needing to park are taking their chances to find a spot in the first place.

The more flow we can incorporate into Chicago's streets, the better off everyone will be. Removing obstructions from all road users' paths is safest and most effective.

notoriousDUG said:

You're not getting it.

The area that was the right side of the traffic lane where trucks double parked and cars could get around them is now the bike lane.  There is no right traffic lane on many roads, they are just wide and have room for cars to sneak by a double parked truck.  When the bike lanes are added if a truck were to double park outside of the bike lane it would be quite literally blocking the entire traffic lane and create an even more dangerous situation where cars would either have to pull into oncoming traffic or try to squeeze past in the what is not the bike lane; both of these are far more dangerous to them and cyclists.

Double parking in that space is the best compromise solution to what is a pretty complex issue.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on September 21, 2013 at 11:33am

Pot, meet kettle.

You're even worse than I am bud.

Mark said:

OH, Oh, Oh,  Let me answer for Emperor Dug. 

Here is how it will go... 

Random bullying tactic, or condescending remark, followed by....

blah, blah, blah,  I'm 100% right, you are completely wrong, how dare you question my supreme logic and knowledge of all things.  I am LOKI, I am a god...

And then Christine does an Incredible Hulk on him... "Puny god"...

Christine said:

Dug, our example situations are practically identical. In mine, there are two lanes, one of which is blocked by a delivery truck; in yours, the 'shoulder' which pretty much has room for the truck, is blocked. Your attempt to condescend with a remark on my comprehension of the situation is met with chuckles.

The solution to this issue has already been stated. Currently, there are safe routes for all four parties at issue: the vehicles have a driving lane, bicyclists have a biking lane, there is a parking lane for cars, and there are loading zones for trucks within that parking lane.

If these loading zones are not large enough, then the delivery companies need to discuss this with the business owners on that block together with the city to figure out a better arrangement. Those zones that exist already should not be put to waste simply because they need to be a few feet (assumption) longer.

The only con I can think of off the top of my head to this is that those few feet might cause that block to lose a parking spot. Parking throughout the city is an ongoing problem and a huge sore spot for everyone, including people who are against biking lanes, so I don't really want to go into that part of the discussion because it will go off-topic. Personally, I don't think one lost parking spot is a huge loss. It's impossible to find a parking spot in Wicker Park anyway, with or without biking lanes, loading zones, or hell, fire hydrants.

This option allows for everyone on the road to be safe. Drivers don't have to worry about if/when that bicyclist in the bike lane is going to try to merge. Bicyclists don't have to worry about whether the driver sees them and if they'll let them in. It allows delivery trucks to follow the parking laws and not be in anyone's way. It allows businesses to still get their packages at the time they need them. Vehicles needing to park are taking their chances to find a spot in the first place.

The more flow we can incorporate into Chicago's streets, the better off everyone will be. Removing obstructions from all road users' paths is safest and most effective.

notoriousDUG said:

You're not getting it.

The area that was the right side of the traffic lane where trucks double parked and cars could get around them is now the bike lane.  There is no right traffic lane on many roads, they are just wide and have room for cars to sneak by a double parked truck.  When the bike lanes are added if a truck were to double park outside of the bike lane it would be quite literally blocking the entire traffic lane and create an even more dangerous situation where cars would either have to pull into oncoming traffic or try to squeeze past in the what is not the bike lane; both of these are far more dangerous to them and cyclists.

Double parking in that space is the best compromise solution to what is a pretty complex issue.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on September 21, 2013 at 11:33am

YES!

Thomas Bruzan said:

Not just the businesses, residences too.
william said:

I think Mark and Christine's comments are quite telling; you both have obviously never driven large trucks or had delivery/messenger jobs. You both seem out of touch. 

I've driven trucks and most of the time the best parking option is a compromise. If you think the city will exponentially expand the loading zones to meet the demand for every single business address that receives delivery (which is basically all of 'em), your perspective is far from the reality of the situation. 

If you think that making all city-wide deliveries in the middle of the night is even practical, then you're even more out of touch with the massive day-to-day operations that keep our city alive. 

honestly, both of you need to get off your high horse and give the workers a break. we're working as hard as we can, as fast as we can, and trying to do with with as little interruption as possible. Have some empathy. Not everyone works in a cubicle. Some people have to move heavy shit around as fast as possible. 

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Permalink Reply by Thomas Bruzan on September 21, 2013 at 3:43pm

I wonder what effect forcing the letter of the law concerning double parking of service vehicles would have on cyclists obtaining new bike lanes? Tom B.

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Permalink Reply by igz on September 21, 2013 at 7:15pm

BEER!!!

h' 1.0 said:

In summary-- as long as trucks are delivering beer or bicycles, they're fine.

I must admit I'm surprised that the employees of Rapid Transit drink so much beer that they need it delivered by truck though.

notoriousDUG said:

Now you get to the beer truck or the freight truck dropping bikes of at Rapid Transit...  Well even a short trailer is going to be 30' which is 3 cars gone without taking the tractor into consideration.  Beer trucks are even longer, usually a 40' or longer trailer.  Neither of those are capable of backing into a spot without almost double the clear space or getting into oncoming traffic; some of them can't even make some side street turns and have no hope of getting into an alley.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on September 21, 2013 at 10:10pm

Read the rest of the discussion please.

Report back on your findings.

William Beck said:

Um, in a LEGAL parking space maybe?

notoriousDUG said:

Where should UPS, USPS and Fedex park their trucks when they make a delivery then?

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Permalink Reply by Maurice on September 23, 2013 at 6:41pm

Just got home from work. Rather than being depressed that I had to work so late, I decided during my 5-mile commute through the Loop and some rather desolate areas with ample curb-side parking to conduct a highly scientific experiment to test some of the claims made in this thread.

Number of delivery trucks expected: 0
Number of delivery trucks encountered: 5

Number of double-parked delivery trucks expected: 0
Number of double-parked delivery trucks encountered: all of them (plus an empty police car)

But fortunately...
Number of bicyclists endangered: 0
because there was almost no traffic and, indeed, almost no bicyclists.

So, according the mathematical calculations written on this here cocktail napkin, a certain subset of delivery truck drivers will park smack dab in the middle of a bike lane or a traffic lane even when there is an empty curb literally right next to them and actually closer to the place where they are making their delivery. Go figure.

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Permalink Reply by Rich S on September 26, 2013 at 7:16am

Saw this liquor truck making deliveries this morning and thought I'd share. The liquor store is across the street. Rather than block the very wide bike lane and make it easy to deliver this driver parked across the street blocking a vehicular traffic lane. This is right by my job and normally the delivery trucks will block the lane. But thought I'd point out that sometimes they don't. And before anyone asks I did see someone come out of the liquor store and walk across the street to the truck. At first I wasn't sure if he was delivering to the store or the Walgreens.  

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