Bicycling wastes gas ?
I found this interesting and thought I would pass it on. I never considered the fact that what and how I eat had this much of an impact on anything more than my own health and well being. Chalk one up for the Veggiemonster :)
http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/energy.html
http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/energy.html
Views: 829
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Andrea Bolks on
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Look at the bigger picture beyond Organics... which... can be more environmentaly degrading depending on what factors you are looking at. Like the land use argument I have been making. Such low productivity makes it nessassary to use so much more land to grow certain foods... Organic does not mean sustainable... bla bla bla.
Anyways I say look at the climate change projections for our earth (ICPP) and tell me we are doing OK. We need huge change, and fast. Not just little things we do here and there that make us feel good. Lifestyle changes.
Duppie said:You think so? I think that our collective habits do chance over time. Look at organics. When I came to the US about 15 years ago, you had to go to Whole Foods or some (usually laughably badly run) local health food store. Now organic products are available at regular grocery stores, heck, even at Walmart. And we can get into a discussion about the downsides of “industrial organic” (which are real: the free-range that isn’t, etc.) but I maintain that 30,000 acres of organic baby greens are still better for the soil, water quality, farm workers and consumers than 30,000 acres of conventional baby greens.
Andrea Bolks said:I don’t think that’s possible… this is America, where we are all free to do all the stupid shit we want! Haha… which also means we are driven by the $, so farmers try and grow things cheaper and cheaper and more and more efficiently degrading the earth more and more.
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Jason is smart
Duppie said:You are not the greatest reader, are you?
I wasn’t arguing whether going meat free was second or third or whatever on the list of things to do. I was arguing that going meat free would be near to impossible because I love all things food: reading about it, sourcing it, preparing it and yes, eating it to.
In fact, I am about to embark on cooking my first pigs head. Half of it will be turned into headcheese, half of it into ‘zult’, a Dutch version of headcheese, which is more finely gorund and spiced differently. Now if only I can find some pigs blood somewhere, I can start making bloodsausage…..
Anyhow, I think Dr Doom is making the right point. You don’t convert people by beating them upside their head with facts about how bad their behavior is. You convert them by showing how joyful your life’s choices are (and yes, I absolutely love kale). Same with bicycling. If you try to convert drivers by explaining how bad cars are for the environment, you’re bound to get less results than by showing how truly joyful riding your bike can be. Especially this week. Look at that sunshine!
Jason said:Actually the next biggest thing you can do to reduce your carbon footprint after giving up your car is switching to a meat free (and even more effective, a vegan) diet. The impact is huge. It's just a fact.
I anticipate that some people are going to throw their arms up in protest and trot out the same tired old rationales, justifications, misdirections and outright taunts in defense of a meat heavy diet, but it doesn't change the facts. A vegetarian or vegan diet, especially when dealing with 6 billion people is vastly more sustainable for the planet, our resources, our economy and our overall health. Not to mention the welfare of the animals involved and the workers within the factory farming systems. Anyone who wants to deny that is in my opinion right there in the same boat with those who deny climate change science. I don't say that to vilify people who eat meat, I'm just saying that meat heavy diets are bad for the planet and everyone one on it, and if somebody wants to pretend otherwise they're in denial. I don't expect to change anyone's mind about it but there it is.
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Permalink Reply by Duppie on
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Good points, but I wasn't presenting organics as the end solution to all your problems, but as an example where demand driven changes caused manufacturers to take notice and adapt. In a similar argument, I don't see why this couldn't change our land use if enough people demand it.
What other lifestyle changes would you advocate, beside the already mentioned reduction/elimination of meat consumption?
Andrea Bolks said:Look at the bigger picture beyond Organics... which... can be more environmentaly degrading depending on what factors you are looking at. Like the land use argument I have been making. Such low productivity makes it nessassary to use so much more land to grow certain foods... Organic does not mean sustainable... bla bla bla.
Anyways I say look at the climate change projections for our earth and tell me we are doing OK. We need huge change, and fast. Not just little things we do here and there that make us feel good. Lifestyle changes.
Duppie said:You think so? I think that our collective habits do chance over time. Look at organics. When I came to the US about 15 years ago, you had to go to Whole Foods or some (usually laughably badly run) local health food store. Now organic products are available at regular grocery stores, heck, even at Walmart. And we can get into a discussion about the downsides of “industrial organic” (which are real: the free-range that isn’t, etc.) but I maintain that 30,000 acres of organic baby greens are still better for the soil, water quality, farm workers and consumers than 30,000 acres of conventional baby greens.
Andrea Bolks said:I don’t think that’s possible… this is America, where we are all free to do all the stupid shit we want! Haha… which also means we are driven by the $, so farmers try and grow things cheaper and cheaper and more and more efficiently degrading the earth more and more.
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Permalink Reply by Jason on
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Duppie, don't get so bent out of shape. I'm not attacking you. (I do by the way have decent reading comprehension skills.) You just brought up "footprints" by which I assume you mean your carbon footprint, or more broadly you environmental impact, and how you believe the cumulative effects of you're other environmentally friendly lifestyle choices (using HCF lightbulbs, buying organic etc.) offsets the negative impact of eating meat and I'm pushing back against that rationale. I'm pushing back because I simply don't think that statement is true. I'm sorry if that challenges some assumptions you have about yourself and your role in the world or makes you feel attacked or whatever, that's certainly not my intention, but I get weary of listening to unfounded rationales about why it's okay to eat meat. Especially the rationale that basically consists of "It tastes good." I'm sorry but the pleasurable physical sensations derived from an activity don't make it ethical, just or sustainable. (I will say though that I appreciate the honesty of the meat eater, who when faced with the facts, says "You know what, I don't care. I like the taste of meat, so that's what I'm going to eat, and I don't care what the effects of that are for me or anyone else." slightly more than those who try to rely on bad science, or faulty nutritional claims or whatever else. At least they're being true to their nature.)
Like I said I'm not trying to vilify meat eaters, smoking is also a terrible habit, it's bad for the people who do it, it's bad for the people around them, and it's a drain on our health care system. Nobody disputes that (although that wasn't always the case). I can and will say that without that being an indictment of smokers as people. I smoked a pack a day for 15 years, I don't look back and think of myself as a person of low moral fiber for doing it. People don't smoke or eat meat because they want an animal to live in misery or poison the Gulf of Mexico or give themselves cancer, they do it because of socialization, advertising, cultural norms, peer pressure and because nicotine is highly addictive. But none of that changes the outcome, and you can't maintain any intellectual honesty if you try to deny the causal links, or try to disassociate your own culpability in a chain of events.
Also, once again, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm quite certain that science and reason have no chance against emotion, I mean that sincerely. So people can eat whatever they want as far as I'm concerned, but I'm not going to stand by with my mouth shut as educated people who should know better try to minimize, downplay or rationalize the collective impact of eating of meat. Just be honest with yourself and others about what your doing and the effect it has is all I'm saying. And if someone can't do that and still feel comfortable about themselves then maybe that's a sign that a change is in order.
Duppie said:You are not the greatest reader, are you?
I wasn’t arguing whether going meat free was second or third or whatever on the list of things to do. I was arguing that going meat free would be near to impossible because I love all things food: reading about it, sourcing it, preparing it and yes, eating it to.
In fact, I am about to embark on cooking my first pigs head. Half of it will be turned into headcheese, half of it into ‘zult’, a Dutch version of headcheese, which is more finely gorund and spiced differently. Now if only I can find some pigs blood somewhere, I can start making bloodsausage…..
Anyhow, I think Dr Doom is making the right point. You don’t convert people by beating them upside their head with facts about how bad their behavior is. You convert them by showing how joyful your life’s choices are (and yes, I absolutely love kale). Same with bicycling. If you try to convert drivers by explaining how bad cars are for the environment, you’re bound to get less results than by showing how truly joyful riding your bike can be. Especially this week. Look at that sunshine!
Jason said:Actually the next biggest thing you can do to reduce your carbon footprint after giving up your car is switching to a meat free (and even more effective, a vegan) diet. The impact is huge. It's just a fact.
I anticipate that some people are going to throw their arms up in protest and trot out the same tired old rationales, justifications, misdirections and outright taunts in defense of a meat heavy diet, but it doesn't change the facts. A vegetarian or vegan diet, especially when dealing with 6 billion people is vastly more sustainable for the planet, our resources, our economy and our overall health. Not to mention the welfare of the animals involved and the workers within the factory farming systems. Anyone who wants to deny that is in my opinion right there in the same boat with those who deny climate change science. I don't say that to vilify people who eat meat, I'm just saying that meat heavy diets are bad for the planet and everyone one on it, and if somebody wants to pretend otherwise they're in denial. I don't expect to change anyone's mind about it but there it is.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Zumwalt on
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I haven't read all 5 pages but I eat meat,beef and I loves me a Bacon-Cheeseburger and given my purchasing habits I eat around a pound a week and go out to eat once every 2 weeks (averaged for the sake of argument) at that rate it will take me 6.5 years to eat them meat from one cow.
Now being a bike rider and eating a Bacon-Cheeseburger w/fries and a few beers leaves me in less than bike riding condition so that is a bigger issue than any other, not the occasional eating of beef.
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Permalink Reply by Kohaku on
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"hello, I'm Kohaku and I'm a meat-aholic."
Consider a human's digestive system and teeth layout. We are designed to be omnivores.
Don't blame me for how cattle is being raised, or any other animal for that matter but most likely I'll eat it.
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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on
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I think I'm going to go out and eat veal tonight -then some baby lamb. Then move right onto actual babies...
MMM -fava beans!
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Doom on
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Consider a human's digestive system and teeth layout. We are designed to be omnivores.
Don't blame me for how cattle is being raised, or any other animal for that matter but most likely I'll eat it.
If by "designed" you mean "evolved," then sure, but that's not really relevant. Men also evolved with a biological imperative toward rape. If eating meat is wrong it shouldn't be done.
I don't think it's flat out wrong, but you are to blame for how the cattle you eat was raised, and you know it, whether or not you want to admit it. All most people would want you to do is just cut out the pink slime burgers and keep the meat eating to pricier, tastier, healthier stuff bought from green markets and trustworthy butchers. No one's going to stop you from doing otherwise, but do you really want to be eating reprocessed pig assholes and the like in the name of being a meatoholic?
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Cattle are animals -think of them just like big bugs. You hire an exterminator to kill dirty disease-ridden vermin that are in your house (of if you don't deal with the bugs you are gross IMHO). You don't care that mommy bug and daddy bed-bug's whole family is wiped out painfully and their whole civilization within your mattress is destroyed do you? No. they are just animals. The same is true with cattle in my world.
Think of them as big field mice. When a field of potatoes is planted thousands of field mice and other little critters get cut up and mangled by the farm machinery -they die long horrible deaths laying there dismembered hoping that the scavengers come along soon to finish them off quicker. Even more of them are mangled when the potatoes are harvested. Hundreds and perhaps even THOUSANDS of little mice and other wild animals are killed for every acre of your so-called "vegan" food that is planted and harvested. Think about THAT the next time you stare at your so-called "vegan" potato or carrot! If you purchase ANY food from any farm larger than 1 dude bending over in a field working very carefully and not using any type of mechanized farming then you are participating and supporting the MURDER of all those innocent creatures that inevitably die in the production of your so-called "vegan" food.
It's all just silly pseudo-intellectual denial to think that it can be any other way.
Personally, I'll eat just about anything that didn't have a name. I draw the line at fluffy and rover but that's about it. I have not let Disney's decades of talking animals brainwash me into anthropomorphizing animals into something that they are not.
Millions of years of evolution are not wrong.
Dr. Doom said:Consider a human's digestive system and teeth layout. We are designed to be omnivores.
Don't blame me for how cattle is being raised, or any other animal for that matter but most likely I'll eat it.
If by "designed" you mean "evolved," then sure, but that's not really relevant. Men also evolved with a biological imperative toward rape. If eating meat is wrong it shouldn't be done.
I don't think it's flat out wrong, but you are to blame for how the cattle you eat was raised, and you know it, whether or not you want to admit it. All most people would want you to do is just cut out the pink slime burgers and keep the meat eating to pricier, tastier, healthier stuff bought from green markets and trustworthy butchers. No one's going to stop you from doing otherwise, but do you really want to be eating reprocessed pig assholes and the like in the name of being a meatoholic?
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