Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Anne Wieland on October 23, 2010 at 8:19am

very scary. praise God you slowed down. praise God, praise God.

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Permalink Reply by igz on October 23, 2010 at 2:03pm

contact the city about the conditions of this intersection.

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Permalink Reply by Joe J on October 23, 2010 at 3:21pm

had that happen to me once where some girls jumped out between two park cars into the road and I had to lock up the brakes and was literally shaking as well. life can change in a hurry. mine does not sound quite as close a call as yours but it freaked me out and until this day seem on the lookout for the unexpected pedestrian in the road

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Permalink Reply by mike w. on October 24, 2010 at 4:33am

iggi said:

contact the city about the conditions of this intersection.

The problem isn't so much about the conditions of the intersection -it's a typical sidestreet/thouroghfare corner. The very basic problem there in general is one of speed limit enforcement on Palatine rd. -there is no good place to set up a speedtrap or even to pull over a speeder/aggressive driver.

The other problem is drivers' habit of creeping past the stop line to get a better view of passing traffic.

Sight lines there aren't too bad as these things go, but i'm sure we could all name dozens of intersections and streets all over the county with potentially deadly obscured views.

i guess that i posted this mainly to relieve residual angst over the near miss. Perhaps a safety lecture about defensive driving would have been better posted in a car and drivers' forum, but i just wanted to reinforce the notion that as cyclists, we need to be aware of our needing to be seen at all times, and to keep our own eyes open. We cannot depend on drivers seeing us, let alone avoiding contact. That's all been said before and better elsewhere in these fora, but i just wanted to put my 2 cents out here too.

Thanks for your time.

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Permalink Reply by T.C. O'Rourke on October 24, 2010 at 6:44am

Hey Mike.

I'm really glad that you avoided a collision. I applaud your posting the details of this incident for others to comment on and learn from.

I don't wish to make you feel worse about the incident or jump on you for errors or demonize automobile use. I do seem to have a different take on this though. I'm going to be blunt in the interest of brevity.

From your description, I would say you were completely at fault for this near collision.

You were turning while the girls were heading straight, which means you yield to them. They were in a crosswalk, which means you yield to them. You started a turn when you had no sight line on who was coming in the crosswalk.

In both post & response, you blame this incident on two factors: speeding on Palatine Rd. and "drivers'... creeping past the stop line to get a better view of passing traffic." Neither hold up.

I sympathize with not wanting to be rear ended, but that doesn't excuse turning through a crosswalk you cannot see is clear.

Also, it is perfectly legal (and proper) to stop at at the stop bar, roll forward and stop again to get a better view before turning. The driver of the van that was blocking your view cannot be blamed for this.

Furthermore, the fact that intuition told you to slow down and that you were able to stop before hitting these children is NOT "defensive driving."

Defensive driving is making allowances for other road users mistakes and dangerous behavior. Say, slowing down at an intersection where you HAVE the right of way so that you can avoid a collision should another driver pull out. These girls did nothing wrong.

Sorry man, this one is on you.



mike w. said:

iggi said:

contact the city about the conditions of this intersection.

The problem isn't so much about the conditions of the intersection -it's a typical sidestreet/thouroghfare corner. The very basic problem there in general is one of speed limit enforcement on Palatine rd. -there is no good place to set up a speedtrap or even to pull over a speeder/aggressive driver.

The other problem is drivers' habit of creeping past the stop line to get a better view of passing traffic.

Sight lines there aren't too bad as these things go, but i'm sure we could all name dozens of intersections and streets all over the county with potentially deadly obscured views.

i guess that i posted this mainly to relieve residual angst over the near miss. Perhaps a safety lecture about defensive driving would have been better posted in a car and drivers' forum, but i just wanted to reinforce the notion that as cyclists, we need to be aware of our needing to be seen at all times, and to keep our own eyes open. We cannot depend on drivers seeing us, let alone avoiding contact. That's all been said before and better elsewhere in these fora, but i just wanted to put my 2 cents out here too.

Thanks for your time.

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Permalink Reply by mike w. on October 24, 2010 at 7:21am

T.C.-
i appreciate your take on this, and yes, i realise that the yield was on me. i did as i ought to have done and was on my brakes at the time. As i say, i make that turn nearly daily. i KNOW that if i had hit them, i would've been TOTALLY at fault. i maintain, however that drivers DO creep up past a stop line and this is what poses the real danger at these intersections in general, due to obstructing of the sightlines. i also maintain that MOST of my neighbours who make that turn as i do every day, would probably have run them down. They're turning from a major road usually at 40+ and i have seen that the vast majority i have witnessed don't slow down at all until well into that turn. There are many issues here. i am not the world's best driver, i know that. i have been accused of being a slowpoke and overly cautious. Sorry, but i obey speed limits if for no other reason than because my insurance is high enough, thank you. i also don't fear being rear-ended all that much, i don't drive a Pinto. ;-)

Just wanted to point out that there are other factors than driver neglegence that contribute to cycling fatalities, and also parents & others can do more to teach safety to their kids as well. That said, this was a good lession in keeping my head out of my arse when behind the wheel

Good days,
-m.



T.C. O'Rourke said:

Hey Mike.

I'm really glad that you avoided a collision. I applaud your posting the details of this incident for others to comment on and learn from.

I don't wish to make you feel worse about the incident or jump on you for errors or demonize automobile use. I do seem to have a different take on this though. I'm going to be blunt in the interest of brevity.

From your description, I would say you were completely at fault for this near collision.

You were turning while the girls were heading straight, which means you yield to them. They were in a crosswalk, which means you yield to them. You started a turn when you had no sight line on who was coming in the crosswalk.

In both post & response, you blame this incident on two factors: speeding on Palatine Rd. and "drivers'... creeping past the stop line to get a better view of passing traffic." Neither hold up.

I sympathize with not wanting to be rear ended, but that doesn't excuse turning through a crosswalk you cannot see is clear.

Also, it is perfectly legal (and proper) to stop at at the stop bar, roll forward and stop again to get a better view before turning. The driver of the van that was blocking your view cannot be blamed for this.

Furthermore, the fact that intuition told you to slow down and that you were able to stop before hitting these children is NOT "defensive driving."

Defensive driving is making allowances for other road users mistakes and dangerous behavior. Say, slowing down at an intersection where you HAVE the right of way so that you can avoid a collision should another driver pull out. These girls did nothing wrong.

Sorry man, this one is on you.

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Permalink Reply by Jason on October 24, 2010 at 9:14am

Illinois has split liability laws. Had there been a crash, any decent lawyer would have argued that the other driver was stopped in a crosswalk where they shouldn't have been, and that the girls were riding their bikes through an intersection when they couldn't see approaching traffic and that weaving behind the van wasn't very safe or smart either. Also while it may not be illegal to ride a bike on the sidewalk or in a crosswalk in Paletine, this incident illustrates the dangers of doing so by placing faster moving bicycles on infrastructure designed for slower moving pedestrians where they are harder to see. Also Mike was covering his brake as he made the turn and being extra cautious ("something told me to really slow down") probably due to obstructed sight lines, and as a result was able to brake in time when the kids really did "pop out of nowhere", the oft used excuse by drivers who weren't exercising caution and actually do hit a cyclist or pedestrian who may or may not have actually popped into view.

I don't see how else he could have handled this situation. It seems like T.C. is suggesting that Mike should have come to a complete stop on a road with 50 + mph traffic until the car to his right pulled onto Paletine and cleared the sight lines before making his right. However that puts Mike in legitimate jeopardy of being rear ended but more importantly the driver to his right, waiting until the coast is clear to make their right, now has their view obstructed by Mike, who's waiting for them to go. It's a catch 22.

Had there been a crash there would have been more than enough blame to go around, from a pragmatic as well as a legal stand point. But of course there wasn't a crash, and I don't think that can be credited to anyone in this situation except Mike for exercising some due caution. It seems that unless you just want to fault him out of hand because he's driving an automobile, Mike's the only person who did anything right in this situation.

So congratulations Mike, this ones on you.

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Permalink Reply by Chris B on October 25, 2010 at 4:01am

Good job, funny how that intuition works. Maybe you saw them for a split second in the corner of your eye and didn't realize it. Or maybe you just felt funny due to the lack of visibility. The intuition in those situations is usually right, at least if you read Gavin DeBecker.

re: people behind me. I learned the hard way (no one hurt) to slow down way before turns. I used to get rattled by people behind me almost rear ending me and beeping and getting mad. Until one day someone did actually rear end me as I was turning, and after that I made sure to slow down even more. My not slowing down enough was what was causing problems behind me. If they get mad if I slow down too much, well that's all, at least they know exactly what I am doing.

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Permalink Reply by Liz on October 25, 2010 at 7:57am

I agree with this. I got rear ended entering a construction zone, since I had simply taken my foot off the accellirator and not used the brakes to slow down another motorist who was not slowing down for a 45 mph active work site ran right into me. Now I make sure to actively press the brakes so that it is known that I'm slowing down.

Thanks for sharing. Its a good reminder that we should all take more care to notice sight lines, both when cyclists or drivers.

While being re-ended sucks, its certaintly a better alternative than hitting and potentially injuring a pedestrian in a life threatening way.



Chris B said:

Good job, funny how that intuition works. Maybe you saw them for a split second in the corner of your eye and didn't realize it. Or maybe you just felt funny due to the lack of visibility. The intuition in those situations is usually right, at least if you read Gavin DeBecker.

re: people behind me. I learned the hard way (no one hurt) to slow down way before turns. I used to get rattled by people behind me almost rear ending me and beeping and getting mad. Until one day someone did actually rear end me as I was turning, and after that I made sure to slow down even more. My not slowing down enough was what was causing problems behind me. If they get mad if I slow down too much, well that's all, at least they know exactly what I am doing.

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