Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on July 17, 2013 at 3:43am

Part of the value you get when you buy at a shop is the knowledge and extra service as well as the ability to try before you buy.  Those extras cost money; that is the difference between shopping around different stores and buying online.

Dann B (5.25 mi/8.75 mi) said:

What El Dorado is describing is called "showrooming" and is certainly not unique to bike shops.  It's cited as part of the reason that Borders and Circuit City went belly up, Barnes & Noble and Best Buy are having trouble, and government entities are clamoring for sales tax to be applied online.

I'm kind of torn on this practice.  It's not all that different from going to a shop (focusing on bike shops here), talking to an associate about a chain or wheel and then going to other stores to check the prices there.  This used to be called "shopping around" and was considered responsible consumerism. Since we can now do that research more quickly with apps, the practice is being demonized.  Personally, if I'm doing that, I try to do it on the DL and I don't specifically go in looking to screw the shop.  I'm looking to get the most value for my money.

I have no problem asking the shop wrench for advice on doing the work myself.  Normally, though, I will have the parts in my hand (to actually purchase from the shop) and I'll only bug them if they don't look too busy or if they approach me.  For example, I recently put bar ends on, removed the grips, and wrapped my flat bars in gel tape.  The wrench saw me with the tape in hand and gave me a bunch of unsolicited advice.  The job came out fantastic because of that.  I'll be dropping off coffee this weekend for them.

I would never dream of asking to use the shop tools, and have actually declined offers to do so.  My dad was (still is, I suppose) an auto mechanic with his own shop.  People used to do this shit to him all the time and it pissed him off to the point where he started charging a rental fee of around 50% of replacement cost to use his tools.  He had a bunch of tools stolen over the years, one by one.

Finally, I was under the impression that El Dorado, while not specifically a troll, likes to post things to stir the pot.

notoriousDUG said:

So let me get this straight, you go into a shop that pays rent on its space as well as insurance and utilities just to be open.  Take a look at the merchandise that they paid to have there for people to look at.  Take up the time of of the staff they pay to be there because you need their knowledge/opinion and then, after taking all of that from them you go and buy it from some internet store who can offer a cheaper price because they do not have a retail space you can check out product at or staff you can ask real questions of?

Which leads into an interesting question; why do people think it is ok to do shit like this to bike shops?  Seriously, I want to ask all of you that question; after several years of working in shops I really want to know why it is people do things at bike shops they never would at another business.

Would you walk into a restaurant, ask how they make their food and then leave to go home and make it yourself?

Would you go to a car mechanic and ask if you could use their tools to perform a repair in their parking lot?

Would you stop in a restaurant to sample dishes, buy nothing and then go home and order delivery?

Would you go to a car mechanic, buy the parts you needed and then demand they put them on for free?

Seriously, why does everyone think that bike shops should just give stuff away to them?

Other industries use crazy mark ups over MSRP on stuff as well, auto shops being just one of them but I don't see this kind of complaining there.

El Dorado said

This is why I usually look at the part in the store and ask the sales people questions. However, I then usually tell them I forgot my wallet and go home to order it on Amazon. I dislike Chicago bike shops and their employees quite a bit. This charging above MRP is pretty typical.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on July 17, 2013 at 3:44am

Will the internet fix your bike?

Mike F said:

Some people will showroom you, purchase the merchandise online at a discount and then when something doesn't fit or work properly, they bring it in to the bike shop and ask for free advice to make it work.

It's always tempting to tell them to go ask Amazon for help with their issues.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on July 17, 2013 at 3:44am

Wrong.  I worked in the auto industry and you pay well over MSRP for the parts used to repair your car.

El Dorado said:

I know of no other industry where parts or goods are higher than the MRSP. This includes auto repair shops! My understanding is that actual bikes are not huge profit makers. So they jack you on parts & accessaries. "Tune ups" and other repairs are huge money makers as well.  

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on July 17, 2013 at 3:46am

It doesn't matter where you showroom the LBS is till losing business when you purchase online.

Adam Herstein (5.5 mi) said:

I once bought a set of brake pads online and took them to my favorite LBS to get them installed. The mechanic informed me that I had purchased the wrong pair, but they had the correct one in stock. I purchased the pads from the shop and got them installed there, then returned the ones online.

My point is never devalue the benefit of having a local bike shop. On one hand, I feel that a good LBS should be able to take parts that I had purchased online and install them without protest. After all – they are still getting my business via labor costs and my recommending them to others. However, if I am not sure exactly what parts I need, and am getting advice from the mechanic, I have no problem buying parts from the shop. I've generally found that the shop I go to has comparable prices to Amazon, so I tend to buy directly from the LBS for convenience. Plus, its more polite than just handing them a pile of parts and stating "here, install these".

Accessories, on the other hand, I almost always buy online. I usually will use REI as a showroom for those because I feel less guilty doing so than going to a LBS. They are larger in size, so I don't get approached by a salesman as much as I would at a smaller shop. Plus, I am a member there, and do buy some stuff on sale from time to time. Plus, I feel that REI can afford to lose some business, while a small LBS with razor-thin margins, less so.

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Permalink Reply by Crazy David 84 Furlongs on July 17, 2013 at 4:56am

I hope so, but I am worried that we will not.  Do you remember Kroch & Brentano's, the famous Chicago Bookstore?  They were one of the early casualties of Borders et al.  But what really hastened their demise was a decision to "cut costs" by firing all of the people that actually knew something about books and to hire low cost "clerks".   So, suddenly, you had a book store filled with sales people that didn't actually know what they were selling.  Was it "cheaper"?  Sure.  But it also eliminated any real need to go to a bookstore.    This model seems to work, at least for now, for Barnes and Noble, but that's because they really don't pretend to be a bookstore anymore, rather they are a store that sells books along with a lot of other products.  

 How does this apply to the LBS?  Well it is certainly cheaper to get clerks that don't really know something about bicycle repair or don't really care, but that's not going to give me a reason to go to your shop.  The good news, I guess, is that most people who work in Bike Shops also like to ride bikes... but most people who work in Book Stores like to read and that didn't help K&B's, (and most people who work in Liquor Stores like to drink???   Well maybe not....)
Cameron 7.5 mi said:

We'll probably start to see a shift to where the mechanics and other "back of the store" type stuff drive more of the business than the retail side. Bike shops will probably have smaller retail showrooms and become more like auto repair garages where you bring a bike in to have something done by a mechanic and buy the parts the mechanic uses, but rarely walk out of the store with parts in a box.

 

The knowledge of the staff is the real value of a good shop, not the showroom and large inventory. I've ordered things from shops that I wasn't able to see and judge in their showroom and could have just as easily bought online because of a trusted mechanic who was able to offer advise and vouch for the quality of the parts. In a perfect world I would like to see parts before buying, but having someone I know, trust, and regularly do business with able to vouch for them is a close second.

h' 1.0 said:

Well, it doesn't look like e-commerce is going away any time soon.

Is there something shops can do to adapt to the probability that a good percentage of cyclists are going to buy online instead, and make it work for them somehow?

Dann B (5.25 mi/8.75 mi) said:

What El Dorado is describing is called "showrooming" and is certainly not unique to bike shops.  It's cited as part of the reason that Borders and Circuit City went belly up, Barnes & Noble and Best Buy are having trouble, and government entities are clamoring for sales tax to be applied online.

I'm kind of torn on this practice.  It's not all that different from going to a shop (focusing on bike shops here), talking to an associate about a chain or wheel and then going to other stores to check the prices there.  This used to be called "shopping around" and was considered responsible consumerism. Since we can now do that research more quickly with apps, the practice is being demonized.  Personally, if I'm doing that, I try to do it on the DL and I don't specifically go in looking to screw the shop.  I'm looking to get the most value for my money.

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Permalink Reply by Crazy David 84 Furlongs on July 17, 2013 at 5:00am

Cameron 7.5 mi said:

The knowledge of the staff is the real value of a good shop, not the showroom and large inventory. I've ordered things from shops that I wasn't able to see and judge in their showroom and could have just as easily bought online because of a trusted mechanic who was able to offer advise and vouch for the quality of the parts. In a perfect world I would like to see parts before buying, but having someone I know, trust, and regularly do business with able to vouch for them is a close second.

My comment:

The other problem that I have run into are the "effectively tied" bike stores that essentially operate as an outlet for one brand (often Trek) and thus really only carry bontrager parts (for the most part) and when they have to order parts they again default primarily to Trek.    Generally good parts, but it is a bit "one size fits all".   I haven't really found an LBS that has given me trust that is also convenient to where I am.  (The only one in the City, so far, that I really like is in Hyde Park....)

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Permalink Reply by Lisa Curcio on July 17, 2013 at 5:16am

I don't know how convenient it is, but what about Comrad Cycles?
 
Crazy David 84 Furlongs said:

 I haven't really found an LBS that has given me trust that is also convenient to where I am.  (The only one in the City, so far, that I really like is in Hyde Park....)

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Permalink Reply by Will on July 17, 2013 at 5:46am

I once had a somewhat similar situation. I purchased a pair of Pearl Izumi cycling gloves, fairly high end ones, from a bike shop within spitting distance of Chicago and Milwaukee. After I bought them, I looked online and noticed the bike shop charged me more than MSRP for the gloves (more than 10% above MSRP). I wasn't too pleased, but figured I'm helping a local shop, and I'm getting something for my money in return. Extra service, right?

A couple of weeks later, those gloves started falling apart, and I contacted Pearl Izumi, who told me to take them back to the shop I purchased them from, which I did. The shop wouldn't help me, telling me to contact Pearl Izumi.

I haven't been back to that shop since.

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Permalink Reply by Crazy David 84 Furlongs on July 17, 2013 at 5:52am

That's a double failure.   Pearl Izumi also dropped the ball.   In fact, I would argue that they are the bigger ball dropper in that it was clearly not a question of mis-installation by the Bike Shop.  It may well be that Pearl is also lousy in dealing with its vendors and the LBS was going to take all of the hit.  Frankly, I would have been a lot more aggressive with Pearl Izumi unless the LBS had expressly recommended these gloves as being particularly durable.

 

Will said:

I once had a somewhat similar situation. I purchased a pair of Pearl Izumi cycling gloves, fairly high end ones, from a bike shop within spitting distance of Chicago and Milwaukee. After I bought them, I looked online and noticed the bike shop charged me more than MSRP for the gloves (more than 10% above MSRP). I wasn't too pleased, but figured I'm helping a local shop, and I'm getting something for my money in return. Extra service, right?

A couple of weeks later, those gloves started falling apart, and I contacted Pearl Izumi, who told me to take them back to the shop I purchased them from, which I did. The shop wouldn't help me, telling me to contact Pearl Izumi.

I haven't been back to that shop since.

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Permalink Reply by Will on July 17, 2013 at 6:17am

It's common for manufacturers to perform warranties through the dealer, rather than interface directly with consumers, so I wasn't surprised. After being denied any sort of help through the bike shop, I should have gone back to PI and discussed the situation with them, and given them a chance to make the situation right, but I didn't. It was just a pair of gloves.

Whether vendors have problems dealing with PI warranty claims is not my problem. They are free to stop selling PI if that's the case. And yes, the bike shop SPECIFICALLY recommended and ordered these gloves for me. I didn't just drop in the shop one day and pick them up.

Crazy David 84 Furlongs said:

That's a double failure.   Pearl Izumi also dropped the ball.   In fact, I would argue that they are the bigger ball dropper in that it was clearly not a question of mis-installation by the Bike Shop.  It may well be that Pearl is also lousy in dealing with its vendors and the LBS was going to take all of the hit.  Frankly, I would have been a lot more aggressive with Pearl Izumi unless the LBS had expressly recommended these gloves as being particularly durable.

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