Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on October 23, 2015 at 8:28am

This intersection has been insane since - at least - I was a kid riding down Lincoln to get to school in the mid-80s.  Incredibly sad, and at 12:30 in the day during broad daylight, ugh.

I do have a question/observation.  I think this is great (if likely unknown by most motorists):

“When a motor vehicle and a bicycle are traveling in the same direction on any highway, street, or road, the operator of the motor vehicle overtaking such bicycle traveling on the right side of the roadway shall not turn to the right in front of the bicycle at that intersection or at any alley or driveway until such vehicle has overtaken and is safely clear of the bicycle.”

But, especially on Milwaukee & Elston, cyclists often approach a red light and belly their way up to a crosswalk, going around cars in a right turn lane with right turn signals on. And resting in more or less their blind spot.

A few cyclists commenting on the Tribune's link suggested that this is lawfully encouraged behavior.   I was always taught that is the last thing you want to do - you're in a driver's blind spot, and if the driver got there first (why the "overtaking" part of that ordinance is key) they don't really have any way of seeing you.

My understanding is if a cyclist is approaching a motorist in a right hand turn lane with a right turn signal on, go around that car on the left.  Always. 

From the POV of a driver trying to legally turn right, yes, you signal and check over your shoulder due to the blind spot - but if a cyclist put themselves in your blind spot, there really isn't any way of knowing they're there.  So I agree with the "ride as if you're invisible" and also factor in that drivers do have actual degrees of their field of vision that are by definition invisible (it's usually approx even with the back seat passenger door).

None of this may be relevant to the situation at hand, but I was a perplexed by the comments on the Trib, so if something has changed on the legal front I'd definitely appreciate knowing it.

 

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Permalink Reply by Waymond Smith on October 23, 2015 at 9:01am

Was the the biker on the street or on the sidewalk? There seems to be some confusion regarding this.

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Permalink Reply by David Barish on October 23, 2015 at 9:38am

Carter I try to avoid commenting on the behavior of the cyclist because whether she made a mistake or showed the bike handling skills of Peter Sagan I want to support her.  With that in mind it is always good to review our own decisions on the road in light of such tragedies to see if there is something we can do to minimize the risk  one of these stories will be about us. In that spirit I agree with you that the approach is best on the left. I recently saw a bunch  of cyclists crawling up on the right at this very intersection  while I went solo to the left of a vehicle that did not  have it's turn signal on but showed the body language and wheel language of a vehicle that was going to make a right turn.  

This is one of  those intersections where even Peter Sagan can get hit as there are  three streets lots of cars, trucks, bikes and pedestrians all crowded into a small space. It may be a sad situation where nobody was "wrong" but a crash and an injury occurred.  We still don't know and that will get  sorted out. If (based on  what we saw in one of  the news articles) she was on the sidewalk I have opposite reactions-- 1-  she didn't belong there, but, 2- It is hard to fathom why anybody on the sidewalk whether on feet or a bike should get hit.  I have no real  reaction because it is still unclear to me  who was where.

As to the comments- I have found  that the most egregious trolls live under the bridge  of such stories. I can't read  those comments  for the same reason i  can't bother to  watch certain news channels that share a name with a local  coach. 

I  try to  keep in mind two trite aphorisms on the city streets. 1) the bumper sticker on a lot  of  trucks  that says if  "If you can't see me I can't see  you" and, 2) the phrase drilled into our heads at the AIDS Ride- "Stay alert. Stay alive."

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Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on October 23, 2015 at 10:11am

I hear you, David, but I am still curious if the law has changed or not.  It doesn't take much for an urban legend to develop these days.

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Permalink Reply by Liz on October 23, 2015 at 9:48am

"A few cyclists commenting on the Tribune's link suggested that this is lawfully encouraged behavior.   I was always taught that is the last thing you want to do - you're in a driver's blind spot, and if the driver got there first (why the "overtaking" part of that ordinance is key) they don't really have any way of seeing you. 

My understanding is if a cyclist is approaching a motorist in a right hand turn lane with a right turn signal on, go around that car on the left.  Always. "

My stomach always sinks a little bit when a see a cyclist go to the right of a car at a stop light with its right turn signal on. I always found this to be just about the most dangerous thing you could do as a cyclist, as you may be positioning yourself within a blind spot and the majority of accidents occur at intersections and involve turning. 

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Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on October 23, 2015 at 10:14am

I agree with you 100%.  Here's the full ordinance again.

I don't find this vague or confusing.  Cyclists should never, ever go to the right of a car at a stop light with its right turn signal on, as the first line item below is telling cars to hug the curb or street edge equivalent.

http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Illinois/chicago_il/titl...$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:chicago_il$anc=JD_9-16-020

9-16-020  Turning at intersections.

   The driver of a vehicle intending to turn at an intersection shall do so as follows:

   (a)   Right turns.  Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway.

   (b)   Left turns on two-way roadways.  At any intersection where traffic is permitted to move in both directions on each roadway entering the intersection, an approach for a left turn shall be made in that portion of the right half of the roadway nearest the centerline thereof and by passing to the right of such centerline where it enters the intersection or on that portion of the roadway that may be specifically designated for such purpose by appropriate markings, and after entering the intersection the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection to the right of the centerline of the roadway being entered. Whenever practicable the left turn shall be made in that portion of the intersection to the left of the center of the intersection.

   (c)   Left turns on other than two-way roadways. At any intersection where traffic is restricted to one direction on one or more of the roadways, the driver of a vehicle intending to turn left at any such intersection shall approach the intersection in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of such vehicle or on that portion of the roadway that may be specifically designated for such purpose by appropriate markings, and after entering the intersection the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection, as nearly as practicable, in the left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in such direction upon the roadway being entered.

   (d)   Right-of-way on left turn.  The driver of a vehicle within an intersection intending to turn to the left shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle approaching from the opposite direction which is within the intersection or so close thereto as to constitute an immediate hazard, but said driver, having so yielded and having given a signal when and as required, may make such left turn and the drivers of all other vehicles approaching the intersection from said opposite direction shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle making the left turn.

   (e)   Right-of-way to a bicycle on left turn.  The driver of a vehicle within an intersection intending to turn to the left shall yield the right-of-way to a bicycle approaching from the opposite direction which is within the intersection or so close thereto as to constitute an immediate hazard.

   (f)   Turning right in front of a bicycle.  When a motor vehicle and a bicycle are traveling in the same direction on any highway, street, or road, the operator of the motor vehicle overtaking such bicycle traveling on the right side of the roadway shall not turn to the right in front of the bicycle at that intersection or at any alley or driveway until such vehicle has overtaken and is safely clear of the bicycle.

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Permalink Reply by Lisa Curcio on October 23, 2015 at 12:42pm

The law has not changed.  This really only matters in the context of a traffic or criminal hearing or in a civil suit for personal injury.  To stay safe, follow Yasmeen's advice and ride like you are invisible.  (And drive and walk like you are invisible, too.)

I don't want to second guess this cyclist.  I try to second guess myself every minute to avoid finding myself in a bad place.

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Permalink Reply by Not too hip on October 24, 2015 at 2:38pm

Agree. Always move to the left of a right hand turner.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Zumwalt on October 23, 2015 at 10:42am

Majority if my near misses involve a driver passing me turning right in front of me or stopping half way thru blocking me.
Like the livery SUV driver told me "oh I see you" yeah I said
you just don't care or understand the consequences of your actions.

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Permalink Reply by Anne Alt on October 26, 2015 at 12:33am

That's one of the most common types of crashes. I've had my share of near misses like that.

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Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on October 26, 2015 at 2:00pm

Absolutely.  Well put.

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Permalink Reply by JeffB on October 26, 2015 at 5:44am

On a separate note, can we all refrain from using just the non-specific "today" or "yesterday" in our discussion titles, and instead include the date in the title as well?

Or maybe the site admins could add a "Posted on:" notation to the list of forum discussions, like it appears above after you open the discussion?

Thanks.

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