The Chainlink

Questions about wheelbuilding: Spoke type and nipple length

I’ve built a number of wheels, and are prepping to build the next.  I have some questions about spokes and nipples.

Type of Spokes

I weigh 185LB and this will be a rear wheel for my weekend distance riding bike. I am looking at a good combination of reliable and lightweight. The rim will be a Velocity A23 , 32h, laced 3x to a White Industries T11 hub.

I’m looking at DT Swiss Competition spokes. They come in two thicknesses. 14/15/14 gauge or 15/16/15 gauge. I’ve built successful wheels with 14/15/14 gauges in the past. The weight difference is fairly significant: 50 grams per wheel when using 15/16/15 spokes.

Do you think the 15/16/15 spokes would be a good fit for my purpose?

 

Nipple Length

When using 15/16/15, the nipples come in multiple lengths: 12, 14, and 16 mm. Spoke length calculator that I have used do not mention the nipple length that is assumed. Which one should I order?

Thanks!

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Permalink Reply by David P. on December 5, 2013 at 9:58am

Duppie,

I do not know enough about wheelbuilding to answer this, but the iBOB list, to which IIRC you are already subscribed, is an excellent place to ask these questions.

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on December 5, 2013 at 11:12am

Will the lighter gauge spokes work and build a nice wheel, yes.  Do I think they are worth it?  No, not at all for the type of riding you mostly do and the type of wheel you are riding.  However, my thinking on that comes from my opinions on wheel building so your mileage may vary and I'll let you know why I think so.

OK, first off I want to get into the whole thing about butted spokes being stronger because of stretching and sharing the load.  On a smooth road and most conditions I agree this is true.  However when you get into a bike that is going to see potholes, curbs and maybe even some straight up abuse I think you just want as much material there as you can.  I actually usually opt for straight gauge spokes on my commuter wheel builds, I think they are stronger.  I recently put a flat spot so bad I can feel the hop in the back rim on a rear wheel I built almost 3 years ago hitting a pothole; the wheel has a hop but is still almost perfectly true.  

More material will always carry more weight, especially under impact.  Your benefit to the lighter gauge spokes is going to be weight, and your trade off is going to be the strength of the wheel.  Now, small guy smooth roads or even big guy smooth roads that may be fine but if you think you might see some rough conditions you may want to think about sticking tot he heavier spokes.  And remember, at 50g per wheel you are only looking at saving .22lbs total.  You can effect that weight savings by taking a good healthy crap before you ride; is that tiny bit of weight worth the trade off in wheel strength?  Only you know

As far as nipple length goes 12mm is the standard.

Permalink Reply by Michael A on December 5, 2013 at 12:28pm


I just had a similar set of wheels built up for use as training wheels and my cx bike. White ind T-11 to Pacenti A23 rims (highly recommended) I used sapim cx ray spokes in a 3x for the front and cx ray non drive side/ and leader spokes drive side.I also went for the more durable brass nipples.The weight came in under 1600 grams for the set. Sometimes longer nipples can cause a sharper angle where the spoke meets them not only looking odd but causing a weak point . Also a bomb proof set of wheels will be uncomfortable, you have to strike a balance with performance,durability and comfort.  Last suggestion is to order a couple extra of each size spoke and store them in the bottom of your seat post using a cork from a wine bottle.

Permalink Reply by Drewbacca on December 5, 2013 at 2:24pm

Use the smallest nipple that will fit the rim... too long is extra weight, too short won't allow a spoke wrench. I don't believe that the spoke length calculator takes nipple length into account, just the ERD of the rim.

Permalink Reply by mike w. on December 5, 2013 at 7:25pm

+1 to DUG's advice. i'm 175# on a good day and ~180+ all-up in winter. i go with 36/3X F&R and 14g straight on most of my wheels... pretty bombproof. You won't really feel a difference between DB and straight gauge spokes in the ride, and for distance you'll want durability above all.

Permalink Reply by ilter on December 5, 2013 at 7:39pm

That is a very cool tip!

Michael A said:

[snip]  Last suggestion is to order a couple extra of each size spoke and store them in the bottom of your seat post using a cork from a wine bottle.
Permalink Reply by ilter on December 5, 2013 at 7:48pm

As far as I understand, there are certain forces you work against even if your speed is constant. These are air drag, tire rolling resistance, etc. And there are other forces that come into play when you are speeding up or slowing down. And these are inertia of the mass you displace, and the inertia of rotating parts.

Now, the weight of wheels is important in terms of rotational inertia, not nearly as much important in terms of overall weight of bike+rider. Rotational inertia is proportional to square of the distance from axis of rotation. I did a somewhat quick calculation. I think 50gr weight savings in a wheel's worth of spokes is identical to 20gr weight savings in tire or rim. When you consider a typical tire is 200 gr and rim 500 gr, the 50 gr you save in spokes, which translates to 20gr in tires, is really insignificant. At least to me.

Perhaps better to pick a lighter inner tube or rim tape instead :)

Permalink Reply by Duppie on December 5, 2013 at 9:07pm

Let me see if I got this right:

My best option would be riding a pennyfarthing. I'd have to save statisyically nothing and still get ahead. ;)

But I appreciate your, and others, advise. It is not just the 50 grams in spokes. It is a conscious effort to find an optimum between weight, quality and price: brakes, crankset, bottom bracket, rim, hub, tubes, bottle cages, seatpost, and hopefully tires are all components were I hope to save some weight. I hope to be able to save 2lb altogether

If you have any suggestions for leightweight, durable rim tape, I'd love to hear them too.

ilter said:

As far as I understand, there are certain forces you work against even if your speed is constant. These are air drag, tire rolling resistance, etc. And there are other forces that come into play when you are speeding up or slowing down. And these are inertia of the mass you displace, and the inertia of rotating parts.

Now, the weight of wheels is important in terms of rotational inertia, not nearly as much important in terms of overall weight of bike+rider. Rotational inertia is proportional to square of the distance from axis of rotation. I did a somewhat quick calculation. I think 50gr weight savings in a wheel's worth of spokes is identical to 20gr weight savings in tire or rim. When you consider a typical tire is 200 gr and rim 500 gr, the 50 gr you save in spokes, which translates to 20gr in tires, is really insignificant. At least to me.

Perhaps better to pick a lighter inner tube or rim tape instead :)

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on December 5, 2013 at 9:47pm

Veloplugs

Duppie said:

Let me see if I got this right:

My best option would be riding a pennyfarthing. I'd have to save statisyically nothing and still get ahead. ;)

But I appreciate your, and others, advise. It is not just the 50 grams in spokes. It is a conscious effort to find an optimum between weight, quality and price: brakes, crankset, bottom bracket, rim, hub, tubes, bottle cages, seatpost, and hopefully tires are all components were I hope to save some weight. I hope to be able to save 2lb altogether

If you have any suggestions for leightweight, durable rim tape, I'd love to hear them too.

ilter said:

As far as I understand, there are certain forces you work against even if your speed is constant. These are air drag, tire rolling resistance, etc. And there are other forces that come into play when you are speeding up or slowing down. And these are inertia of the mass you displace, and the inertia of rotating parts.

Now, the weight of wheels is important in terms of rotational inertia, not nearly as much important in terms of overall weight of bike+rider. Rotational inertia is proportional to square of the distance from axis of rotation. I did a somewhat quick calculation. I think 50gr weight savings in a wheel's worth of spokes is identical to 20gr weight savings in tire or rim. When you consider a typical tire is 200 gr and rim 500 gr, the 50 gr you save in spokes, which translates to 20gr in tires, is really insignificant. At least to me.

Perhaps better to pick a lighter inner tube or rim tape instead :)

Permalink Reply by ilter on December 5, 2013 at 9:49pm

All I said was 50 gr on the spokes is insignificant. And if you do pay so much attention to weight of spokes, you should also pay at least as much attention to weight of your rim, rim tape, inner tube and tire.

Permalink Reply by ilter on December 5, 2013 at 9:55pm

There you go!  Veloplugs save you 15gr according to this website. Practically the same reduction in inertia you would achieve by using lighter spokes.


notoriousDUG said:

Permalink Reply by Michael A on December 5, 2013 at 10:03pm

here is a nice piece on different rims, this is one of the reasons I chose the pacenti over the velocity

http://wheelbuilder.org/rims.html

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