"We Must Talk About Race When We Talk About Bikes" - The Chainlink2024-03-29T07:44:59Zhttps://thechainlink.org/forum/topics/we-must-talk-about-race-when-we-talk-about-bikes?commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A1138161&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noUS bike advocates, who have h…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-06-22:2211490:Comment:11381612020-06-22T12:55:01.079ZPaul Lazzarohttps://thechainlink.org/profile/PaulLazzaro
<p>US bike advocates, who have historically been mostly white and male, typically look at NL and DK and push infra to make the US more like them. But perhaps the history of racism in the US makes this impossible. Perhaps bicycling for transportation is just something that cannot become popular in the US.</p>
<p>Re-reading an old article about bike lanes in Johannesburg, South Africa, I felt it could just as easily have been written about the politics of bike infra in most US cities.…</p>
<p></p>
<p>US bike advocates, who have historically been mostly white and male, typically look at NL and DK and push infra to make the US more like them. But perhaps the history of racism in the US makes this impossible. Perhaps bicycling for transportation is just something that cannot become popular in the US.</p>
<p>Re-reading an old article about bike lanes in Johannesburg, South Africa, I felt it could just as easily have been written about the politics of bike infra in most US cities.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/are-bike-lanes-racist-and-classist-thats-a-debate-in-south-africa/2016/10/27/e4212ffa-971e-11e6-9cae-2a3574e296a6_story.html">https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/are-bike-lanes-racist-and-classist-thats-a-debate-in-south-africa/2016/10/27/e4212ffa-971e-11e6-9cae-2a3574e296a6_story.html</a></p> Thank you for explaining your…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-06-18:2211490:Comment:11382492020-06-18T15:16:01.261ZDavid P.https://thechainlink.org/profile/DavidAPertuz
<p>Thank you for explaining your thoughts - I understand them better.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thank you for explaining your thoughts - I understand them better.</p>
<p></p> So there are a couple of reas…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-06-18:2211490:Comment:11382482020-06-18T14:42:49.631ZYasmeenhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/YasmeenSchuller
<p>So there are a couple of reasons why I specifically said "white" and "males". I think you are pretty clear on the male reasoning but have questioned my call out to "white". </p>
<p>Check out their blog posts, Instagram, photos - while there are a few POC sprinkled in, the message Riv puts out in photography is that 90+% of ridership is white male. This is not just a Riv problem, this is an industry problem, a problem in racing bikes, a problem in bike advocacy. It comes across in…</p>
<p>So there are a couple of reasons why I specifically said "white" and "males". I think you are pretty clear on the male reasoning but have questioned my call out to "white". </p>
<p>Check out their blog posts, Instagram, photos - while there are a few POC sprinkled in, the message Riv puts out in photography is that 90+% of ridership is white male. This is not just a Riv problem, this is an industry problem, a problem in racing bikes, a problem in bike advocacy. It comes across in photography, messaging, hiring practices, and price point for entry. </p>
<p></p>
<p>One must have quite a bit of money to buy a Riv. That is another barrier. These aren't bikes for everyone. They are at an elite price point. Sadly, when you look at the income inequality in this country, that too makes them mostly for white men. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Now look at their hiring practices and the leadership. All white males. This has an impact as well. They have one POV. I found that problematic when their one "female" bike, Betty Foy had a male geometry because a man was in charge of it. That seemed crazy to me and when I tried to explain I was disappointed with the fit, they were nothing but confused and frankly, seemed a bit put off that anyone would question the fit of the bike. It was not a positive buying experience. There was also some mansplaining that involved stories about how their girlfriends/wives really didn't like handlebars with drops. They were not remotely open to listening to me and when they shipped my Betty Foy, they sent me what I can only describe as a ridiculously-sized pair or drops that were huge as if to say, oh, you want drops, ok, we'll give you ones that couldn't possibly work. My back hurt when I did a 30-40 mile ride, all excited to take the bike out. So every time I changed the handlebars to try to fix the bike geometry, I had to pay for that change. It cost me hundreds of dollars to prove-out the bike didn't fit. They don't take them back. So I took a bath and sold the bike. I learned my valuable lesson, don't buy a Riv.</p>
<p></p> In your earlier comment (bott…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-06-18:2211490:Comment:11383252020-06-18T14:27:19.307ZDavid P.https://thechainlink.org/profile/DavidAPertuz
<p>In your earlier comment (bottom of p.2), you wrote,</p>
<p></p>
<p>"Their bikes are specifically for white males at a price point (and geometry) for who can afford a very nice expensive bike."</p>
<p></p>
<p>Everything about this and the rest of your comment was easy to understand - certainly bicycle geometry designed primarily around mens' bodies is - but I don't know what you might mean by a bike designed for a white male (as opposed to a male). And by "white" I'm referring to whatever you…</p>
<p>In your earlier comment (bottom of p.2), you wrote,</p>
<p></p>
<p>"Their bikes are specifically for white males at a price point (and geometry) for who can afford a very nice expensive bike."</p>
<p></p>
<p>Everything about this and the rest of your comment was easy to understand - certainly bicycle geometry designed primarily around mens' bodies is - but I don't know what you might mean by a bike designed for a white male (as opposed to a male). And by "white" I'm referring to whatever you meant it as. </p>
<p></p> One could argue that every go…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-06-17:2211490:Comment:11382412020-06-17T15:24:48.473Zcurt(is) lockehttps://thechainlink.org/profile/curtismyers
<p>One <em>could</em> argue that every god-damn bike is "designed for a white person", but I am not going to unpack that one! In an act of privilege, I choose to ride right now instead. Ta-ta and check ya later.</p>
<p></p>
<p>One <em>could</em> argue that every god-damn bike is "designed for a white person", but I am not going to unpack that one! In an act of privilege, I choose to ride right now instead. Ta-ta and check ya later.</p>
<p></p> David, what specifically are…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-06-17:2211490:Comment:11381242020-06-17T15:06:22.556ZYasmeenhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/YasmeenSchuller
<p>David, what specifically are you referring to when you say "white person"? Please quote it.</p>
<p>David, what specifically are you referring to when you say "white person"? Please quote it.</p> Good points, but what exactly…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-06-17:2211490:Comment:11380162020-06-17T15:04:29.105ZDavid P.https://thechainlink.org/profile/DavidAPertuz
<p>Good points, but what exactly is a bike designed for a white person?</p>
<p></p>
<p>Good points, but what exactly is a bike designed for a white person?</p>
<p></p> Thanks for sharing your thoug…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-06-16:2211490:Comment:11383152020-06-16T19:27:46.214ZYasmeenhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/YasmeenSchuller
<p>Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the article. Always good to hear from you. </p>
<p>Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the article. Always good to hear from you. </p> At the same time, promising t…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-06-16:2211490:Comment:11383142020-06-16T18:46:05.003ZYasmeenhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/YasmeenSchuller
<p>At the same time, promising to have the dialogue. Some are not and I do deeply appreciate when someone takes that first step to call out the need for improvement. </p>
<p>Side note: I owned a Riv Betty Foy. I adored that bike but it hurt to ride it because I have a classic long legs, shorter arms geometry for a woman. I eventually had to sell that beautiful bike because after many attempts to adjust it, I could not make it work.</p>
<p>At the same time, promising to have the dialogue. Some are not and I do deeply appreciate when someone takes that first step to call out the need for improvement. </p>
<p>Side note: I owned a Riv Betty Foy. I adored that bike but it hurt to ride it because I have a classic long legs, shorter arms geometry for a woman. I eventually had to sell that beautiful bike because after many attempts to adjust it, I could not make it work.</p> Glad you took a look and resp…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-06-16:2211490:Comment:11382352020-06-16T18:38:36.874ZRyan Stahlmanhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/RyanStahlman
<p>Glad you took a look and responded. He does tend to pontificate rather profusely.</p>
<p> Fair points all around regarding Rivendell. Would be good for them to work harder to expand their design sense and leadership for the whole population, not just white men (like me).</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p>Glad you took a look and responded. He does tend to pontificate rather profusely.</p>
<p> Fair points all around regarding Rivendell. Would be good for them to work harder to expand their design sense and leadership for the whole population, not just white men (like me).</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>