Is European Style Cycling Too Slow for America? - The Chainlink2024-03-29T10:27:38Zhttps://thechainlink.org/forum/topics/is-european-style-cycling-too-slow-for-america?commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A953305&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI mostly agree, but to your a…tag:thechainlink.org,2015-11-05:2211490:Comment:9532242015-11-05T21:15:06.172ZSebastian Baptistehttps://thechainlink.org/profile/SebastianBaptiste
<p>I mostly agree, but to your argument #1 I'd say that you assume that Chicago will not change. I have seen much change since I moved here in 1992. What if people fed up with (soon to be high again) gas prices and congestion move to the center? They're preparing for it in the South Loop I'd think. In #2 you make a good case for Bike Highways—sign me up! Last—my one-way commute is about 12 miles, and, being Dutch, do so by bike. Even at my 12-14 Mph speed I beat motorized traffic & CTA both…</p>
<p>I mostly agree, but to your argument #1 I'd say that you assume that Chicago will not change. I have seen much change since I moved here in 1992. What if people fed up with (soon to be high again) gas prices and congestion move to the center? They're preparing for it in the South Loop I'd think. In #2 you make a good case for Bike Highways—sign me up! Last—my one-way commute is about 12 miles, and, being Dutch, do so by bike. Even at my 12-14 Mph speed I beat motorized traffic & CTA both in the morning and afternoon, usually without too much sweating.</p> I too avoid Dearborn when I'm…tag:thechainlink.org,2015-11-05:2211490:Comment:9530722015-11-05T19:55:35.300ZMauricehttps://thechainlink.org/profile/Maurice
<p>I too avoid Dearborn when I'm in a hurry, even when it's not congested, because it's actually safer for me to ride fast outside of a so-called protected lane. I understand now that they essentially serve as park-like paths inevitably filled with pedestrians and Divvy riders going 3 MPH, but was that really their intended purpose?</p>
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<p>Going forward, it absolutely is reasonable to argue against this sort of infrastructure. </p>
<p>I too avoid Dearborn when I'm in a hurry, even when it's not congested, because it's actually safer for me to ride fast outside of a so-called protected lane. I understand now that they essentially serve as park-like paths inevitably filled with pedestrians and Divvy riders going 3 MPH, but was that really their intended purpose?</p>
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<p>Going forward, it absolutely is reasonable to argue against this sort of infrastructure. </p> Red circle is R = 3 miles cen…tag:thechainlink.org,2015-11-05:2211490:Comment:9533052015-11-05T19:22:21.578ZThis PBL dosnt make me feel safehttps://thechainlink.org/profile/YannPerrod
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/35262593?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/35262593?profile=original" width="607"></img></a> Red circle is R = 3 miles centered on the Loop. I realize that not everyone works in the Loop (I don't myself) but this gives a good idea of the size of Chicago vs. Amstedam (which can mostly be fit inside the red circle) and the likely distances current commuters…</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/35262593?profile=original" target="_self"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/35262593?profile=original" width="607" class="align-full"/></a>Red circle is R = 3 miles centered on the Loop. I realize that not everyone works in the Loop (I don't myself) but this gives a good idea of the size of Chicago vs. Amstedam (which can mostly be fit inside the red circle) and the likely distances current commuters ride.</p>
<p></p> I agree with many of your poi…tag:thechainlink.org,2015-11-05:2211490:Comment:9530712015-11-05T19:05:52.765Zadhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/AdrianRohrer
<p>I agree with many of your points, and some European-designed infrastructure is worth building to make a base for short distance riders, but the simple reality is that American cities are sprawling. </p>
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<p>While many Divvy users may only do the sub-2 mile trip, Milwaukee is amazingly busy with riders, and the majority of those riders are going to WP, Logan Square, etc. That's a distance that falls over 3 miles at least, and likely 4 and above as the younger set expands into…</p>
<p>I agree with many of your points, and some European-designed infrastructure is worth building to make a base for short distance riders, but the simple reality is that American cities are sprawling. </p>
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<p>While many Divvy users may only do the sub-2 mile trip, Milwaukee is amazingly busy with riders, and the majority of those riders are going to WP, Logan Square, etc. That's a distance that falls over 3 miles at least, and likely 4 and above as the younger set expands into Avondale and Irving Park. </p>
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<p>4 to 8 mile trips in Chicago for commuters IS entirely common, and very likely the norm for current users. If you do not build infrastructure designed to get those people to be able to ride 4 to 8 relatively quickly, you're essentially saying no one that lives outside of the West Loop, River North, Gold Coast, etc are ever going to ride to work. </p> Thanks for sharing this.tag:thechainlink.org,2015-11-05:2211490:Comment:9532152015-11-05T17:03:44.219ZAnne Althttps://thechainlink.org/profile/Anne91
<p>Thanks for sharing this.</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing this.</p> Yes, please.tag:thechainlink.org,2015-11-05:2211490:Comment:9530592015-11-05T17:03:08.358ZAnne Althttps://thechainlink.org/profile/Anne91
<p>Yes, please.</p>
<p>Yes, please.</p> I think the comments about th…tag:thechainlink.org,2015-11-05:2211490:Comment:9531442015-11-05T16:08:38.534ZDavid Barishhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/DavidBarish
<p>I think the comments about the length of the trip and the speed of the trip are on point. If a commute is just a few miles there is no need to work up a sweat and more ability find your personal version of Bike Fancy. As the trip lengthens the reality of time is an issue and it is going to be more of a workout. My commute that varies between 13-15 miles depending on the route takes me to every place on the continuum. Close to the hub in the loop I revel in the easy pace of the…</p>
<p>I think the comments about the length of the trip and the speed of the trip are on point. If a commute is just a few miles there is no need to work up a sweat and more ability find your personal version of Bike Fancy. As the trip lengthens the reality of time is an issue and it is going to be more of a workout. My commute that varies between 13-15 miles depending on the route takes me to every place on the continuum. Close to the hub in the loop I revel in the easy pace of the Dearborn PBL wanting to to take the time to check out the variety of bikes around me. As I get farther north I am riding at a modest station to station pace stopping every half mile at a red light. As I get closer to home I am more urgent to get to my destination and find my inner athlete. (though I am still proceeding at a moderate pace according to one of the posts) and increasing my heart rate. I think some fail to ride to the conditions and location. The lakefront, especially in season, is not the place for the lycra dash. If I am in a hurry to get through rather than to the loop I will avoid Dearborn. </p>
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<p>A few years ago I was buying a new bike and went to a shop wanting to strongly consider a dutch style bike. The shop person steered me to a hybrid saying that the dutch bike was for "riding five miles to the farmers market"and that my commute would be unhappy on such a bike. At first I was annoyed thinking there was a bait and switch. Overnight I realized he was right and I bought the hybrid. I have fenders and feel at home in the city. I have 28 mm tires and short of a century feel comfortable zipping suburban lanes. </p>
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<p>I wonder if Dan's theory that hints at a cultural issue with Americans is the issue or whether there is some reality of geography involved...or a little of both.</p> Given that the Dutch experien…tag:thechainlink.org,2015-11-05:2211490:Comment:9530812015-11-05T07:49:11.586ZReboot Oxnardhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/RebootOxnard
<p>Given that the Dutch experience shows that riding drops off quickly at distances of two miles, how do you justify the idea that 2X to 4X that distance is attainable (let alone "most common") in Chicago?</p>
<blockquote><p>2) Biking infrastructure should be aimed for the most common type of functional riding in Chicago: moderate distance rides (4-8 miles) at moderate speeds (12-18 mph).</p>
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<p>Don't confuse your wants and needs with those of the community.</p>
<p>Whether you're…</p>
<p>Given that the Dutch experience shows that riding drops off quickly at distances of two miles, how do you justify the idea that 2X to 4X that distance is attainable (let alone "most common") in Chicago?</p>
<blockquote><p>2) Biking infrastructure should be aimed for the most common type of functional riding in Chicago: moderate distance rides (4-8 miles) at moderate speeds (12-18 mph).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Don't confuse your wants and needs with those of the community.</p>
<p>Whether you're talking about foot paths through the Cumberland Gap or bike lanes on Cumberland Avenue, expanding infrastructure requires broader support than the hardcore but small group of extremists who blazed a trail can muster. The more resources you would like to see devoted to a public project the greater and broader the public support <em>must</em> be. In other words, you aren't going to get your bicycle superhighways unless and until you have busy bicycle sidestreets to feed them. You're trying to build infrastructure using a top-down model and in the long run that never works, you gotta start with solid base and expand that so that the higher levels of the pyramid happen organically.</p>
<p>As an aside, calling those who aren't drowning in your Kool-Aid "chickenshits" and deriding their "Euro-trash fantasy" isn't the optimal way to build support for your dream. The same rules apply to life as an adult that you should have learned as a tot: if you can't play nice with the other kids, sooner or later they're going to get tired of your shit and kick you out of the sandbox.</p> What I am saying is that as t…tag:thechainlink.org,2015-11-04:2211490:Comment:9527602015-11-04T22:31:27.320ZThis PBL dosnt make me feel safehttps://thechainlink.org/profile/YannPerrod
<p>What I am saying is that as trip distance increases, inevitably less people will opt to bike the trip if they have faster and lazier options. As trip distance increases, people's motivation to keep riding will increasingly depend on personal factors such as love of riding, desire to exercise, wanting to save the Earth, hatred of public trans, or most commonly, being poor or DUI. This is why the Dutch bike % drops off quickly as mileage increases. There is not much that planners can do…</p>
<p>What I am saying is that as trip distance increases, inevitably less people will opt to bike the trip if they have faster and lazier options. As trip distance increases, people's motivation to keep riding will increasingly depend on personal factors such as love of riding, desire to exercise, wanting to save the Earth, hatred of public trans, or most commonly, being poor or DUI. This is why the Dutch bike % drops off quickly as mileage increases. There is not much that planners can do to induce people to ride longer distances (other than eliminating other options.) You have this idea that if you lure all these chickenshits too scared of Chicago streets onto PBL's then BAM! they're going to fall in love with cycling and become 5/52 commuters with a 12 mile r/t commute - nope.</p>
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<p>Therefore: 1) Accept that Chicago will never have the bike % of Amsterdam for structural reasons 2) Biking infrastructure should be aimed for the most common type of functional riding in Chicago: moderate distance rides (4-8 miles) at moderate speeds (12-18 mph).</p> Aren't you saying, in effect,…tag:thechainlink.org,2015-11-04:2211490:Comment:9525502015-11-04T10:02:59.275ZReboot Oxnardhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/RebootOxnard
<p>Aren't you saying, in effect, that biking in Chicago (or anywhere else) is essentially limited to no more than neighborhood-to-neighborhood travel? The amount of money and space required to facilitate high-speed, long-distance bike commutes simply isn't going to happen unless the usage is there and the usage won't be there if people aren't already on bikes. It all starts locally and "Euro-trash fantasy" or not there's a reason that even bike intense cultures like the Dutch don't ride long…</p>
<p>Aren't you saying, in effect, that biking in Chicago (or anywhere else) is essentially limited to no more than neighborhood-to-neighborhood travel? The amount of money and space required to facilitate high-speed, long-distance bike commutes simply isn't going to happen unless the usage is there and the usage won't be there if people aren't already on bikes. It all starts locally and "Euro-trash fantasy" or not there's a reason that even bike intense cultures like the Dutch don't ride long distances.</p>