How the Lakefront Trail should be... - The Chainlink2024-03-28T20:14:59Zhttps://thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHere's a pretty good reason. …tag:thechainlink.org,2011-08-20:2211490:Comment:4212602011-08-20T01:17:58.337ZCarter O'Brienhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/CarterOBrien
<p>Here's a pretty good reason. Explains why automobile use skyrocketed as well.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.fathom.com/feature/121636/" target="_blank">http://www.fathom.com/feature/121636/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p></p>
<div style="font-family: verdana; font-size: 12pt;"><b>Horse-driven infrastructure</b></div>
<br></br> <em><font face="times newroman,serif" size="3">At the turn of the nineteenth century, New York City's infrastructure relied upon disease-creating entities such as the…</font></em>
<p>Here's a pretty good reason. Explains why automobile use skyrocketed as well.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.fathom.com/feature/121636/" target="_blank">http://www.fathom.com/feature/121636/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p><b>
</b></p>
<div style="font-family: verdana; font-size: 12pt;"><b>Horse-driven infrastructure</b></div>
<br/> <em><font face="times newroman,serif" size="3">At the turn of the nineteenth century, New York City's infrastructure relied upon disease-creating entities such as the horse. Between 100,000 and 200,000 horses lived in the city at any given time. Each one of those horses gave off 24 pounds of manure and several quarts of urine a day.</font></em> <br/> <br/> <em><font face="times newroman,serif" size="3">The vast majority of city horses were not elegant animals who pulled carriages and lived in stables near the homes of the wealthy; most were big workhorses who did all the hauling--pulling wagons loaded with goods from the shore. Big teams of workhorses powered the city's horse-driven street trolley system. The limited range and speed of these trolleys were one reason everyone lived below 57th Street. Horses are very inefficient in terms of moving people--especially atop big, heavy trolleys. Horses get tired, hungry and thirsty. They also drop dead. The average life span of a horse in New York City in the 1860s and '70s was a meager two and a half years. They were literally worked to death.</font></em><p></p>
<p><br/> <cite>Thunder Snow said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A421389&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2211490Comment421389"><div><br/><cite>Daniel G said:</cite><blockquote><div><p> May as well toss a few horses in the mix. Why the hell not, really.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://chuckmanchicagonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/postcard-chicago-lake-shore-drive-lincoln-park-pedetrians-carriages-people-sitting-c1910.jpg?w=510"><img src="http://chuckmanchicagonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/postcard-chicago-lake-shore-drive-lincoln-park-pedetrians-carriages-people-sitting-c1910.jpg?w=510" class="align-full"/></a></p>
<p>Here's Lake Shore Drive in 1910. Looks pretty nice to me.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote> Horses are delicious.tag:thechainlink.org,2011-08-19:2211490:Comment:4214742011-08-19T22:33:52.474ZFar'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63https://thechainlink.org/profile/JamesBlackHeron
Horses are delicious.
Horses are delicious. Daniel G said:
May as well t…tag:thechainlink.org,2011-08-19:2211490:Comment:4213892011-08-19T22:32:10.426ZThunder Snowhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/Thunder_Snow
<br></br><cite>Daniel G said:</cite>
<blockquote><div><p> May as well toss a few horses in the mix. Why the hell not, really.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://chuckmanchicagonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/postcard-chicago-lake-shore-drive-lincoln-park-pedetrians-carriages-people-sitting-c1910.jpg?w=510" target="_blank"><img class="align-full" src="http://chuckmanchicagonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/postcard-chicago-lake-shore-drive-lincoln-park-pedetrians-carriages-people-sitting-c1910.jpg?w=510"></img></a></p>
<p>Here's Lake Shore Drive in 1910. Looks pretty nice to…</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br/><cite>Daniel G said:</cite>
<blockquote><div><p> May as well toss a few horses in the mix. Why the hell not, really.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a target="_blank" href="http://chuckmanchicagonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/postcard-chicago-lake-shore-drive-lincoln-park-pedetrians-carriages-people-sitting-c1910.jpg?w=510"><img src="http://chuckmanchicagonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/postcard-chicago-lake-shore-drive-lincoln-park-pedetrians-carriages-people-sitting-c1910.jpg?w=510" class="align-full"/></a></p>
<p>Here's Lake Shore Drive in 1910. Looks pretty nice to me.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote> That's is how it should be fo…tag:thechainlink.org,2011-08-19:2211490:Comment:4213292011-08-19T22:14:21.790ZAustin Goodmanhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/AustinGoodman
That's is how it should be for sure!
That's is how it should be for sure! Hey now, I think this is some…tag:thechainlink.org,2011-08-19:2211490:Comment:4213822011-08-19T21:25:51.252ZCarter O'Brienhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/CarterOBrien
<p>Hey now, I think this is something we can all agree is overdue and good news!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/news.detail/object_id/9798c6a2-b902-44df-88bd-ea1c10510b00.cfm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/news.detail...</a></p>
<p> </p>
<h1><strong>CHICAGO PARK DISTRICT & ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION ALLIANCE PRESENT LAKEFRONT TRAIL USAGE…</strong></h1>
<p>Hey now, I think this is something we can all agree is overdue and good news!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/news.detail/object_id/9798c6a2-b902-44df-88bd-ea1c10510b00.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/news.detail...</a></p>
<p> </p>
<h1><strong>CHICAGO PARK DISTRICT & ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION ALLIANCE PRESENT LAKEFRONT TRAIL USAGE STUDY</strong></h1>
<p> </p>
<p><strong><em>Recommendations</em></strong></p>
<p><strong><em><br/></em></strong></p>
<p><em>The report recommends a variety of long-term improvements in specific locations along the trail that will increase trail user safety and improve access in the decades to come including:</em> <br/><em>•Upgrading to the trail design standard (including drainage and lighting) in places that do not currently meet the standard.</em> <br/><em>•In collaboration with the Chicago Department of Transportation (CDOT), designing intuitive underpasses and overpasses that create fewer conflict points between beach/park users and trail users, and reduce congestion in heavily trafficked areas along the trail.</em> <br/><em>•Partnering with CDOT to improve on-street accessibility and increase safety at intersections near the trail.</em> <br/><em>The 35th Street and 67th Street access points had significantly fewer users than the north section, pointing to a strong need to improve accessibility and connectivity on this section of the trail. The Chicago Park District and CDOT are already planning construction of a 35th Street bridge to begin next year.</em></p>
<p><em>Additionally, based on the number of bikes seen along the trail, additional bicycle parking should be created at beaches and playing fields.</em></p>
<p><em>Recommendations and data collected support the Chicago Park District’s long-term plans for the Lakefront Trail, such as the Navy Pier Flyover.</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> Thanks for those links. Bookm…tag:thechainlink.org,2011-08-19:2211490:Comment:4212172011-08-19T18:54:47.683ZJason Whttps://thechainlink.org/profile/JasonW
Thanks for those links. Bookmarked!<br></br>
<br></br>
<cite>Dan Korn said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment414596"><div><br></br><p>The converse of this is traffic evaporation:…</p>
<p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Thanks for those links. Bookmarked!<br/>
<br/>
<cite>Dan Korn said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment414596"><div><br/><p>The converse of this is traffic evaporation:</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.onestreet.org/resources-for-increasing-bicycling/115-traffic-evaporation" target="_blank">http://www.onestreet.org/resources-for-increasing-bicycling/115-tra...</a></p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.preservenet.com/freeways/FreewaysInducedReduced.html" target="_blank">http://www.preservenet.com/freeways/FreewaysInducedReduced.html</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>In short, if you remove roads, the traffic simply goes away.</p>
</div>
</blockquote> "I hardly ever use the Lakefr…tag:thechainlink.org,2011-08-19:2211490:Comment:4199472011-08-19T13:59:34.054ZCarter O'Brienhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/CarterOBrien
<p>"I hardly ever use the Lakefront Path. I hate riding there. It's probably the most dangerous place to ride a bicycle in the city IMO, especially on the North Side"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You barely use the LFP (and obviously not LSD) at all yet you find it proper to claim you know best about what large-scale changes to it would do to the surrounding area?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You just made your opinion on the subject 100% irrelevant.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think I'll go start proposing massive changes in…</p>
<p>"I hardly ever use the Lakefront Path. I hate riding there. It's probably the most dangerous place to ride a bicycle in the city IMO, especially on the North Side"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You barely use the LFP (and obviously not LSD) at all yet you find it proper to claim you know best about what large-scale changes to it would do to the surrounding area?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You just made your opinion on the subject 100% irrelevant.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think I'll go start proposing massive changes in areas of the City I'm not familiar with and wonder why people give me grief. Last word is yours.</p>
<br/>
<p><cite>Dan Korn said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=5#2211490Comment420281"><div><cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br/><blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div><p>The problem with your approach is you are knocking the ACTUAL improvements to the LFP that many, many people have spent many, many years working on.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
What improvements am I knocking? Yes, the LFP has gotten a lot better in some ways over the years. I don't discount any work anyone has done at all. But the LSD elephant is still sitting in the room.<br/>
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br/>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div>And since I've been riding on the LFP since I was about 12 I'm going to say your vision better find a way to get in line with that of the majority of Chicago, or people, including myself, will actively work to stop it. Your Meigs Field comment really says it all, you're no really interested in respecting anybody else's needs, only your own.</div>
</blockquote>
You can accuse me of whatever you want, but this has absolutely nothing to do with my own needs. I hardly ever use the Lakefront Path. I hate riding there. It's probably the most dangerous place to ride a bicycle in the city IMO, especially on the North Side. Although, I would like to see improvements like the kind suggested by the OP so that it would be better for riding, for me and everyone else too.<br/>
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br/>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div>Seriously - you think it's a GOOD thing to have more traffic running amok through residential streets to get to the highways? No thanks. Spoken as a biker who uses those streets as well as a motorist.<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
We clearly differ what on the effect of removing the highway would be. It might increase traffic on other streets temporarily, but I think a lot of the traffic will simply disappear, as I explained earlier. I do happen to think that increased congestion of car traffic is a short-term problem with long-term benefits, because eventually people will tire of sitting in traffic jams and decide to do something else. (And in the short term, if they're sitting in traffic jams, they're hardly running amok.) Or, we can continue to cater to the needs of motorists and try to make sure they have all the possible highway space they can use, and we will undoubtedly get more cars as a reward. See Detroit, Houston, LA, etc.<br/>
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br/>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div><p>That's no way to rally support, which you most certainly need in spades to come even remotely close to a complete overhaul of the LFP so that it's separated from ped traffic, much less taking one lane from LSD, much-much less taking multiple lanes.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Feel free to come up with your own strategy for creating change. Like I said, I don't use the same rhetoric in other places as I do here on the bikey forum. But while this is ultimately a political thing, I'm not so sure that we need to rally support from everyone. The changes that Janette Sadik-Khan has been making in NYC, such as removing automobile lanes from extremely busy downtown streets, have been very controversial, and there has been a huge amount of backlash from people who think that the city is catering too much to cyclists. Yet the changes are being made, and while it's a bit early to quantify, the streets are safer for everyone as a result. So you might think it's selfish for me to want our mayor or other officials to do similarly controversial things here in Chicago, but if we wait until everyone is on board with putting in more bike lanes instead of spending money to build and maintain roads, well, that's what we've been doing for a long time, and that's why we have a highway on the lakefront and so many cars in the city now. The cities which are nearly universally recognized now as being world-class places for cyclists and pedestrians, like Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Portland, and, increasingly, New York City, have had leaders who took on the narrow interests of motorists and the highway/oil/automobile lobbies, and who had to fight to get to where they are now. So, call me whatever you want, but I don't really care what everyone else thinks when it comes to making decisions about infrastructure that will improve our transportation choices and save lives. I'll talk to the folks in charge.<br/>
<br/>
Now, getting back to Meigs Field specifically, I don't agree with Mayor Daley's unilateral and illegal decision to bulldoze it in the dead of night. Even though not everyone has to agree with what our elected officials are doing, there are still legal procedures that need to be followed. I only brought up Meigs Field to counter Jack's argument that change always has to happen slowly. But it was effective, just like the decision to reverse the flow of the Chicago River way back when.<br/>
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br/>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div><p>But you still frankly don't get it as far as the larger importance of LSD. It's not just a people-mover for locals where one form of transport can be subbed for another - it's the lifeblood of numerous universities, hospitals, the Museum Campus (where I work), Soldier Field, Navy Pier, McCormick Place, etc. It's a vital part of our economy for both locals and visitors/tourists, warts and all. That was the St. Louis analogy (Detroit is a total non sequitor) , you take away that river, you just dry up.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
You could build a highway just about anywhere and people would start using it. Does that mean that it was necessary? That we can never change anything because people are doing something a certain way now? Prove to me that any of the institutions you listed won't be able to function if people have to use a different road, or take a train.<br/>
<br/>
You really think that people won't go to Soldier Field if LSD isn't there? People still went to U.S. Cellular Field when the interstate highway that runs alongside it was closed for a year. And you really think tourists come to Chicago to drive on a highway? Well, maybe some do, but a lot of people come to enjoy the lakefront without racing past it in a car, and the highway makes that harder.<br/>
<br/>
And you're downplaying the negatives of LSD quite a bit. Do you call this incident a "wart?"<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://gridchicago.com/2011/after-lollapalooza-crash-cdot-says-queens-landing-crosswalk-will-re-open/" target="_blank">http://gridchicago.com/2011/after-lollapalooza-crash-cdot-says-quee...</a><br/>
<br/>
By the way, the Museum Campus exists in its current state only because part of Lake Shore Drive was relocated. Moving the highway away from the lakefront was a great idea then, and it's still a great idea now.<br/>
<br/>
As for St. Louis, nobody took away the river, if a "river" is your analogy for a highway. They paved over plenty of land for highways. It's a great place to drive around. Yet somehow, all those roads didn't help create a "lifeline" for locals, tourists, or visitors. Why do you think that is?<br/>
<br/>
Also, I brought up Detroit only after you brought up 15th century Tenochtitlan. And you still didn't answer my question about exactly what things you assert we're going to stop producing without Lake Shore Drive, or most of my other questions, for that matter.<br/>
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br/>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div><p>So, keep waiting.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
I will, and I'll keep working too.</div>
</blockquote> Carter O'Brien said:
The prob…tag:thechainlink.org,2011-08-19:2211490:Comment:4202812011-08-19T01:27:43.380ZDan Kornhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/DanKorn
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div><p>The problem with your approach is you are knocking the ACTUAL improvements to the LFP that many, many people have spent many, many years working on.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
What improvements am I knocking? Yes, the LFP has gotten a lot better in some ways over the years. I don't discount any work…
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div><p>The problem with your approach is you are knocking the ACTUAL improvements to the LFP that many, many people have spent many, many years working on.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
What improvements am I knocking? Yes, the LFP has gotten a lot better in some ways over the years. I don't discount any work anyone has done at all. But the LSD elephant is still sitting in the room.<br />
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div>And since I've been riding on the LFP since I was about 12 I'm going to say your vision better find a way to get in line with that of the majority of Chicago, or people, including myself, will actively work to stop it. Your Meigs Field comment really says it all, you're no really interested in respecting anybody else's needs, only your own.</div>
</blockquote>
You can accuse me of whatever you want, but this has absolutely nothing to do with my own needs. I hardly ever use the Lakefront Path. I hate riding there. It's probably the most dangerous place to ride a bicycle in the city IMO, especially on the North Side. Although, I would like to see improvements like the kind suggested by the OP so that it would be better for riding, for me and everyone else too.<br />
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div>Seriously - you think it's a GOOD thing to have more traffic running amok through residential streets to get to the highways? No thanks. Spoken as a biker who uses those streets as well as a motorist.<p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
We clearly differ what on the effect of removing the highway would be. It might increase traffic on other streets temporarily, but I think a lot of the traffic will simply disappear, as I explained earlier. I do happen to think that increased congestion of car traffic is a short-term problem with long-term benefits, because eventually people will tire of sitting in traffic jams and decide to do something else. (And in the short term, if they're sitting in traffic jams, they're hardly running amok.) Or, we can continue to cater to the needs of motorists and try to make sure they have all the possible highway space they can use, and we will undoubtedly get more cars as a reward. See Detroit, Houston, LA, etc.<br />
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div><p>That's no way to rally support, which you most certainly need in spades to come even remotely close to a complete overhaul of the LFP so that it's separated from ped traffic, much less taking one lane from LSD, much-much less taking multiple lanes.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Feel free to come up with your own strategy for creating change. Like I said, I don't use the same rhetoric in other places as I do here on the bikey forum. But while this is ultimately a political thing, I'm not so sure that we need to rally support from everyone. The changes that Janette Sadik-Khan has been making in NYC, such as removing automobile lanes from extremely busy downtown streets, have been very controversial, and there has been a huge amount of backlash from people who think that the city is catering too much to cyclists. Yet the changes are being made, and while it's a bit early to quantify, the streets are safer for everyone as a result. So you might think it's selfish for me to want our mayor or other officials to do similarly controversial things here in Chicago, but if we wait until everyone is on board with putting in more bike lanes instead of spending money to build and maintain roads, well, that's what we've been doing for a long time, and that's why we have a highway on the lakefront and so many cars in the city now. The cities which are nearly universally recognized now as being world-class places for cyclists and pedestrians, like Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Portland, and, increasingly, New York City, have had leaders who took on the narrow interests of motorists and the highway/oil/automobile lobbies, and who had to fight to get to where they are now. So, call me whatever you want, but I don't really care what everyone else thinks when it comes to making decisions about infrastructure that will improve our transportation choices and save lives. I'll talk to the folks in charge.<br />
<br />
Now, getting back to Meigs Field specifically, I don't agree with Mayor Daley's unilateral and illegal decision to bulldoze it in the dead of night. Even though not everyone has to agree with what our elected officials are doing, there are still legal procedures that need to be followed. I only brought up Meigs Field to counter Jack's argument that change always has to happen slowly. But it was effective, just like the decision to reverse the flow of the Chicago River way back when.<br />
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div><p>But you still frankly don't get it as far as the larger importance of LSD. It's not just a people-mover for locals where one form of transport can be subbed for another - it's the lifeblood of numerous universities, hospitals, the Museum Campus (where I work), Soldier Field, Navy Pier, McCormick Place, etc. It's a vital part of our economy for both locals and visitors/tourists, warts and all. That was the St. Louis analogy (Detroit is a total non sequitor) , you take away that river, you just dry up.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
You could build a highway just about anywhere and people would start using it. Does that mean that it was necessary? That we can never change anything because people are doing something a certain way now? Prove to me that any of the institutions you listed won't be able to function if people have to use a different road, or take a train.<br />
<br />
You really think that people won't go to Soldier Field if LSD isn't there? People still went to U.S. Cellular Field when the interstate highway that runs alongside it was closed for a year. And you really think tourists come to Chicago to drive on a highway? Well, maybe some do, but a lot of people come to enjoy the lakefront without racing past it in a car, and the highway makes that harder.<br />
<br />
And you're downplaying the negatives of LSD quite a bit. Do you call this incident a "wart?"<br />
<a href="http://gridchicago.com/2011/after-lollapalooza-crash-cdot-says-queens-landing-crosswalk-will-re-open/" target="_blank">http://gridchicago.com/2011/after-lollapalooza-crash-cdot-says-queens-landing-crosswalk-will-re-open/</a><br />
<br />
By the way, the Museum Campus exists in its current state only because part of Lake Shore Drive was relocated. Moving the highway away from the lakefront was a great idea then, and it's still a great idea now.<br />
<br />
As for St. Louis, nobody took away the river, if a "river" is your analogy for a highway. They paved over plenty of land for highways. It's a great place to drive around. Yet somehow, all those roads didn't help create a "lifeline" for locals, tourists, or visitors. Why do you think that is?<br />
<br />
Also, I brought up Detroit only after you brought up 15th century Tenochtitlan. And you still didn't answer my question about exactly what things you assert we're going to stop producing without Lake Shore Drive, or most of my other questions, for that matter.<br />
<cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=4#2211490Comment419405"><div><p>So, keep waiting.</p>
</div>
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I will, and I'll keep working too. Daniel G said:
I like freeway…tag:thechainlink.org,2011-08-19:2211490:Comment:4199002011-08-19T00:33:13.339ZDan Kornhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/DanKorn
<cite>Daniel G said:</cite><br></br>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=5#2211490Comment419877"><div>I like freeways. They take a bunch of pissed-off commuters and lock them all together between high concrete barriers where they can only hurt each other. Does the space really not exist to separate bikes and peds without attempting a Lake Shore Drive diet? I don't think one would be easy. It's fair to…</div>
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<cite>Daniel G said:</cite><br/>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?x=1&id=2211490%3ATopic%3A394121&page=5#2211490Comment419877"><div>I like freeways. They take a bunch of pissed-off commuters and lock them all together between high concrete barriers where they can only hurt each other. Does the space really not exist to separate bikes and peds without attempting a Lake Shore Drive diet? I don't think one would be easy. It's fair to say that it definitely sucks the least of all Chicago's highways.</div>
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The problem we've been discussing in this thread is that Lake Shore Drive takes a bunch of cyclists, pedestrians, joggers, rollerbladers, dog walkers, crusty jugglers, and everyone else not in a car, and locks them all together in a narrow strip between the lake and a highway.<br/><br/>As for how much LSD sucks compared to other highways, well, that's a matter of opinion. But I think it's also fair to say that we should put things that suck, like highways, garbage dumps, and coal power plants, somewhere else, just about anywhere else, than along our (mostly) otherwise beautiful lakefront.<br/><br/><br/> Right - so I guess what I've…tag:thechainlink.org,2011-08-18:2211490:Comment:4198902011-08-18T19:17:44.529ZCarter O'Brienhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/CarterOBrien
Right - so I guess what I've been saying is the achievable progress is to isolate the bottlenecks, the trouble spots, and fix those. I would absolutely support finding a way to expand the LFP by a bit of encroachment into LSD space, but claiming that removing LSD altogether is on topic when discussing the LFP is well beyond a stretch. Two different issues.<br></br>
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<cite>S said:…</cite>
Right - so I guess what I've been saying is the achievable progress is to isolate the bottlenecks, the trouble spots, and fix those. I would absolutely support finding a way to expand the LFP by a bit of encroachment into LSD space, but claiming that removing LSD altogether is on topic when discussing the LFP is well beyond a stretch. Two different issues.<br/>
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<cite>S said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A419877&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2211490Comment419712"><div><p>It depends on which portion of the path you're on. There are stretches where cyclists and peds can be separated and put on different paths but there are also stretches (e.g. just north of the cultural center) where it really can't be expanded much if any.</p>
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<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Daniel G said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/how-the-lakefront-trail-should?page=5&commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A419877&x=1#2211490Comment419877"><div>I like freeways. They take a bunch of pissed-off commuters and lock them all together between high concrete barriers where they can only hurt each other. Does the space really not exist to separate bikes and peds without attempting a Lake Shore Drive diet? I don't think one would be easy. It's fair to say that it definitely sucks the least of all Chicago's highways.</div>
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