The Chainlink

While listening to to the Waddle and Silvy Show from 9 to 1 pm on 06/07/11 on ESPN radio I got to hear how fun it would be if they intentionally doored cyclists and how sometimes that would just feel great. This went on for about 20 minutes.

 

Well I didn't think that would be great. And as some may know I'm vocal. ;-) So I tried  tweeting with Silvy @WaddleandSilvy for those that tweet and he said that the best course of action would be to send an e-mail to: waddleandsilvy@espnchicago.com

 

The Apology we got on 06/08/11 was a joke. Happened 45 minutes into the show and was terrible.

 

At the bottom of Espn.com there is also a Contact Us that goes to corporate vs the address above that is only read by the show hosts. We need to get on this!

 

If you wanna hear the comments they have a podcast http://espn.go.com/espnradio/player?rd=1#/podcenter/?callsign=WMVPA... . and it happens about 2 hours 14 minutes into the show if memory serves. Started out with making fun of spandex shorts and then went on to murder.

 

In light of the fact that ESPN already had Tony Kornheiser voice his opinions on cyclists I doubt they are looking for more trouble so it would be a good time to get the message out. Watch out for us! Dooring Can KILL us! etc...

 

And Here is a list of sponsors of Waddle and Silvy: They should hear about our  displeasure as well!

 

Performance Bikes!!! Harris Bank, Golfsmith, Jimmy Johns (they do bike deliveries, hello!), John Chico's Men's Wear, Triton College, Wells Fargo, PNC Bank, Ameristar, Home Depot, Johnsonville, Gerber Collision & Glass, Studio 41 Remodelling, 

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So whenever somebody does not understand your point of view they should just be clubbed?  I'll have to keep that in mind and watch my back because I don't understand how you can compare any of this to the holocaust which means I deserve a brick to the face based on your reasoning.

 

Of course you also deserve one for not seeing my point so maybe it just cancels out...

 

Ross Martinek said:

ROTFL! Never heard of Godwin's Law, per se—though I have heard the principle, and I think my analogy is valid.

There's nothing wrong with genuine, sincere apology for a verbal faux pas, and such should ameliorate the consequences to those in question. But it is no longer possible—they have made it clear by their first, so-called apology that they are as sincere as a politician's smile. They obviously don't understand that they did wrong. They must be made to understand. For these fenceposts, "a bigger hammer" is necessary.

In our society, genuine apology is increasingly viewed as a sign of weakness. It should be the hallmark of real strength—it is hard to do. True greatness in anything is impossible without genuine humility. It is a shame that so many people read "humility" as "humiliation." It is anything but.

My money's on Doug's brick.

notoriousDUG said:

[snip]  I deserve a brick to the face based on your reasoning.

 

Of course you also deserve one for not seeing my point so maybe it just cancels out...

 

Ross Martinek said:

ROTFL! Never heard of Godwin's Law, per se—though I have heard the principle, and I think my analogy is valid.[snip]

Wow.  That was the most idiotic out-landish thing I've ever read.  Did you really just compare two radio dj's to Hitler and Stalin?  You would really blame radio dj's if somebody were unfortunate enough to be seriously injured biking? Again - give your fellow man more credit.  I really hope that people aren't buying into this crap that you're shoveling - because then I might have to give my fellow man a little less credit.

 

Where's the common sense?

B


Ross Martinek said:

You are obviously a "kinder, gentler" person. But I don't see having someone this irresponsible losing their job as doing anywhere near the kind of physical harm they, themselves advocated. They suffer no physical consequences, and for minor celebrities, losing their jobs is no more than a temporary inconvenience. Controversy might even make them more "marketable" in some venues. But if they are severely disciplined, it sends a message that people are responsible for their actions and words—a concept we are rapidly losing in this country because "it isn't nice to hurt people." No, it isn't, but if the harm is a consequence of their own actions, it is just.

Even a "real" apology won't help the next cyclist injured or killed by dooring. It will not completely undo the damage done to public awareness. Even a "real" apology costs them nothing but a dent in their obviously overinflated egos.

What they advocated is no different than advocating killing of any group. It doesn't matter what the group is. Hitler did it for Jews and other religious and ethnic groups. Stalin did it. bin Laden did it. So do more others, even today, than one individual can track.

I've suffered severe physical trauma and recovered (mostly). I've been as close to death as a human can come and still get back.

Neither was pleasant.

I believe that any person who is attacked has the right to defend themselves, and that society has the right and responsibility to punish their attacker over and above any damage their intended victim may have inflicted.

And consider this: if one cyclist is harmed by dooring as a result of Tom Waddle's and Mark Giangreco's irresponsible behavior, those two are technically guilty of a crime: Inciting to violence, and possibly a hate crime since it was aimed at a group.

notoriousDUG said:

Your first paragraph makes me sad, very sad; is that really how you want to present cyclists?

 

They said something stupid but I hardly think that is against the law, the FCC really has no reason to be involved.

 

I see complaining to them and expecting a REAL apology to be reasonable but looking to take peoples jobs or cause them harm is a bit over the top.

 

 

You made some valid points, however, you completely misunderstand my reasoning, and my own satire—too subtle, perhaps. Have you never heard that "any sufficient incompetence is indistinguishable from malice"? Think about it.

You started well enough:

"So lets take a real analytical look at this whole thing, drop the emotion and personal experience out of it and just look at the basics:"

But then you go on to say:

"…it is also paints a very negative picture of not only you as a person…"

and

"So whenever somebody does not understand your point of view they should just be clubbed?  I'll have to keep that in mind and watch my back because I don't understand how you can compare any of this to the holocaust which means I deserve a brick to the face based on your reasoning.

Of course you also deserve one for not seeing my point so maybe it just cancels out..."

It seems you are not confident enough of your reasoning to "drop the emotion" so you resort to personal attacks.

As for a comparison with the monsters of history being inappropriate, you do not understand history. "It is sufficient for evil that good men (and women) do nothing." Those monsters gain a toehold whenever someone says or thinks: "Oh, it's no big deal, they didn't really mean it." How would anyone know what they really meant short of mind reading?

Finally, since you apparently cannot "drop the emotion," take your own advice to "move the fuck on and spend life heading in a positive direction."

__________________________

Brian, just read your post. See above. Give your fellow man less credit—you'll live longer and be happier. Common sense isn't.

Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it.


notoriousDUG said:

Yes Howard, as you well know I am completely against cycling and all for sports radio.  I would usually not be offended by a comment like that but being as you actually know me it's actually kind of nasty...

 

If you want to pull that card should we take away Ross's internet privileges because he said we should hit these guys with ball bats? 

 

What they said was wrong and in poor taste but, thanks to the way our culture works, saying things in poor taste to get a reaction is sort of their job.  I disagree with it and think it was wrong but what are you going to do?  People are going to hate on shit, look at how much you and a lot of people here hate on cars. 

 

It was a bad comment, complaints and apologies should follow but please tell me what FCC law it violates.

 

 

H3N3 said:

I would say this depends on how strongly you feel about the cause of bicycling (and maybe in general where your allegiances lie.)

notoriousDUG said:

 

They said something stupid but I hardly think that is against the law, the FCC really has no reason to be involved.

 

I see complaining to them and expecting a REAL apology to be reasonable but looking to take peoples jobs or cause them harm is a bit over the top.

 

To this post-- it seems like you're always right there to call the concerns of cyclists stupid and trivial when they come up here. It's =really= tiring and, as you're a tireless and fairly effective bully when you don't get the last word, it gets depressing too.

 

To this:

 

3. So now that the dumb shit has been said, and the apology far from acceptable, what is the best direction, for cyclists, for this shit show to head?  In my opinion the best way for it to go is to assail them, they network, and their sponsors with complaints that they have no choice but to make a REAL apology and perhaps use some of their air time to educate all of the people who view bikes as toys and don't understand that dooring really fucks people up.  Crying to the FCC and looking to have their jobs over comments made not in malice, but in ignorance, is not going to do anything for cyclists but reinforce the image that we are whiners.  We need to stop looking at this as an affront to all we stand for worthy of going to war and start looking at it as an ignorant comment that can be turned into an opportunity to educate.

 

Yes, that makes sense, and that's what Gabe and others here are advocating.  I don't understand why you're having a complete meltdopwn over a few errant and ill-informed comments about the FCC.


 

 

I have heard it and I do not buy it; sadly many people are too stupid to know better in a lot of cases.  Ignorance is not malice, ignorance is a lack or experience and education compounded by a shitty societal model.

 

I did not make a personal attack, a personal attack would be if I were to call you a fool or an idiot. All I did was call you out on poor application of standards: It is OK for you to threaten violence but not for others to do it; even in the form of satire.  Believe me on this; if anyone here has the courage of their convictions it is me, I will not say or type anything I do not believe 100% and would not say in person.  There are many people here who would vouch to that.

 

I am not moving the fuck on about your comments because you, as a cyclist, represent a group I am a part of and I believe your words and action are making the group I belong to look bad.  If you want to play arm chair psychoanalyst I would say that you had a bad experience and are not unable to view the world in an objective manner... but that's just me.

 

Ross Martinek said:

You made some valid points, however, you completely misunderstand my reasoning, and my own satire—too subtle, perhaps. Have you never heard that "any sufficient incompetence is indistinguishable from malice"? Think about it.

You started well enough:

"So lets take a real analytical look at this whole thing, drop the emotion and personal experience out of it and just look at the basics:"

But then you go on to say:

"…it is also paints a very negative picture of not only you as a person…"

and

"So whenever somebody does not understand your point of view they should just be clubbed?  I'll have to keep that in mind and watch my back because I don't understand how you can compare any of this to the holocaust which means I deserve a brick to the face based on your reasoning.

Of course you also deserve one for not seeing my point so maybe it just cancels out..."

It seems you are not confident enough of your reasoning to "drop the emotion" so you resort to personal attacks.

As for a comparison with the monsters of history being inappropriate, you do not understand history. "It is sufficient for evil that good men (and women) do nothing." Those monsters gain a toehold whenever someone says or thinks: "Oh, it's no big deal, they didn't really mean it." How would anyone know what they really meant short of mind reading?

Finally, since you apparently cannot "drop the emotion," take your own advice to "move the fuck on and spend life heading in a positive direction."

__________________________

Brian, just read your post. See above. Give your fellow man less credit—you'll live longer and be happier. Common sense isn't.

Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it.

ok-so this is the 99th post to the thread. i have the list of sponsors in my bag and will post tonight for sure and i have a lot of reading and e-mailing for this and naked ride. riding home now. glad it has started a debate. argueing with each other is something we're all awesome at. but let's try focusing this on have waddle and silvy retract the statements (since the apology the following day was just as bad) and turn them into a mouth piece for good. more in a bit i'm gonna go ride in a mist fog thing.

I would have much more appreciation for your criticism if you choose to tell it to me one of the many times I see you in person.  I would be interested in how you see me as a bully; because I stick to my guns and believe in what I say?  When have I called the concerns of cyclists trivial and stupid?  Please show me this because I don't feel that way; I just think that in many cases cyclists forget to look at the bigger picture and recognize that we are a minority in society and fighting an uphill battle.  We often forget how others work and just take the moral high ground and come off as entitled jerks looking down on the rest of society who do not bike; not a good way to make a point.  I wish to promote cycling in a positive manner that does not judge those who do not choose my world view; is that so wrong?

 

Howard, I know you, respect you and consider you a friend, you have my contact info and see me from time to time; if you think my views are so wrong headed I would really like it if you took the time to actually talk to me about it vs. snipe at me on the internet.

 

I do not like the FCC comments because they represent an attitude of crying to the government whenever you hear something you dislike; it is freedom of speech, not freedom from speech.  I hate what they said and how they acted but that does not mean they are not entitled to say it.  The day a person can not get up and say the exact opposite of what I believe without intervention from 'the powers that be' is they day I weep for our country.  If people want to change what these guys are saying they need to put pressure on these guys directly via public opinion and action not by crying to big brother because they dislike what they hear.  This is not me trivializing cyclists rights, it is me being upset that people think they have a right to censor what others say.

 

 

H3N3 said:


notoriousDUG said:

Yes Howard, as you well know I am completely against cycling and all for sports radio.  I would usually not be offended by a comment like that but being as you actually know me it's actually kind of nasty...

 

If you want to pull that card should we take away Ross's internet privileges because he said we should hit these guys with ball bats? 

 

What they said was wrong and in poor taste but, thanks to the way our culture works, saying things in poor taste to get a reaction is sort of their job.  I disagree with it and think it was wrong but what are you going to do?  People are going to hate on shit, look at how much you and a lot of people here hate on cars. 

 

It was a bad comment, complaints and apologies should follow but please tell me what FCC law it violates.

 

 

H3N3 said:

I would say this depends on how strongly you feel about the cause of bicycling (and maybe in general where your allegiances lie.)

notoriousDUG said:

 

They said something stupid but I hardly think that is against the law, the FCC really has no reason to be involved.

 

I see complaining to them and expecting a REAL apology to be reasonable but looking to take peoples jobs or cause them harm is a bit over the top.

 

To this post-- it seems like you're always right there to call the concerns of cyclists stupid and trivial when they come up here. It's =really= tiring and, as you're a tireless and fairly effective bully when you don't get the last word, it gets depressing too.

 

To this:

 

3. So now that the dumb shit has been said, and the apology far from acceptable, what is the best direction, for cyclists, for this shit show to head?  In my opinion the best way for it to go is to assail them, they network, and their sponsors with complaints that they have no choice but to make a REAL apology and perhaps use some of their air time to educate all of the people who view bikes as toys and don't understand that dooring really fucks people up.  Crying to the FCC and looking to have their jobs over comments made not in malice, but in ignorance, is not going to do anything for cyclists but reinforce the image that we are whiners.  We need to stop looking at this as an affront to all we stand for worthy of going to war and start looking at it as an ignorant comment that can be turned into an opportunity to educate.

 

Yes, that makes sense, and that's what Gabe and others here are advocating.  I don't understand why you're having a complete meltdopwn over a few errant and ill-informed comments about the FCC.


 

 

I'll have to agree with Dug on this,losing you're job over something you said IS a little over the top and a "forced" apology may mean nothing but if they aren't able to see the error in thinking then they need someone to tell them to apologize.

 

How about they are "forced" to ride bikes to work for a month see how they handle that?

 

 

I filed a complaint with the FCC.  Much better than a baseball bat.

 

Nancy L. Fagin

List of sponsors posted! at the top as well as a link to the podcast.
Got that and how about a list of sponsors/advertisers to channel 7 where Mark-look at how tan I am my teeth are really white -Giangreco is a sportcaster.

Gabe said:
List of sponsors posted! at the top as well as a link to the podcast.

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