Is It OK To Kill Cyclists? (NY Times)
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by April on
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+1
Eli said:Here's my proposal: Every time you get in a car, from this moment forward, obey the letter of the law in every traffic exchange (that means 25 mph, not 26) everywhere to help cyclists and pedestrians view drivers as predictable users of the road who deserve respect.
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Permalink Reply by Rich Scott on
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The point of this is that we don't want to get hit by a car. Making the punishment for a driver hitting a cyclist more severe will not make it safer for us or PREVENT us from getting hit. I think it's safe to say that 99.99% of drivers don't WANT to hit a cyclist.
It's OUR responsibility to do everything possible to make ourselves safe on the road. For me, that means I use a mirror. A good one! I use a helmet mounted mirror that allows me to see what's going on behind me and how cars are reacting to me being on the road. I'm always amazed by how many cyclists don't use a mirror.....would you drive your car without one?? Yet we are vehicles on the road.
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Permalink Reply by Madopal (16.5 mi) on
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Not entirely sure where to even start with this. First, yes, we should guarantee our safety. But "OUR responsibility?" I'd say that it's the responsibility of those driving around 2 ton vehicles not to harm anyone around them, it's not our responsibility to not be run over.
Second, mirrors: first, a car has a mirror because a) you're changing lanes when people could be overtaking, b) you're backing up and might need to look behind you, and c) you're turning and might need to check where things are. On a bike, a & b are non-starters. C could be an issue, but you can glance over your shoulder. The other possibility is a car coming up behind you that could hit you. Then, what is a bike going to do when a vehicle comes bearing down on them at 2x their speed or more? Hope to jump the curb and bail? And if this happens, what are the odds that you're looking in the mirror at the exact moment the vehicle is coming?
You should be looking forwards, because that's where everything is you can do anything about on a bike. If people want to use mirrors, that's their prerogative, but to say that you should use one because cars need one is a non sequitur at best.
Rich Scott said:It's OUR responsibility to do everything possible to make ourselves safe on the road. For me, that means I use a mirror. A good one! I use a helmet mounted mirror that allows me to see what's going on behind me and how cars are reacting to me being on the road. I'm always amazed by how many cyclists don't use a mirror.....would you drive your car without one?? Yet we are vehicles on the road.
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what is a bike going to do when a vehicle comes bearing down on them at 2x their speed or more?
If I see them in my mirror I'm going to GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY ASAP! That's my point....it's your life....take responsibility for it.
Madopal (5.8 mi) said:Not entirely sure where to even start with this. First, yes, we should guarantee our safety. But "OUR responsibility?" I'd say that it's the responsibility of those driving around 2 ton vehicles not to harm anyone around them, it's not our responsibility to not be run over.
Second, mirrors: first, a car has a mirror because a) you're changing lanes when people could be overtaking, b) you're backing up and might need to look behind you, and c) you're turning and might need to check where things are. On a bike, a & b are non-starters. C could be an issue, but you can glance over your shoulder. The other possibility is a car coming up behind you that could hit you. Then, what is a bike going to do when a vehicle comes bearing down on them at 2x their speed or more? Hope to jump the curb and bail? And if this happens, what are the odds that you're looking in the mirror at the exact moment the vehicle is coming?
You should be looking forwards, because that's where everything is you can do anything about on a bike. If people want to use mirrors, that's their prerogative, but to say that you should use one because cars need one is a non sequitur at best.
Rich Scott said:It's OUR responsibility to do everything possible to make ourselves safe on the road. For me, that means I use a mirror. A good one! I use a helmet mounted mirror that allows me to see what's going on behind me and how cars are reacting to me being on the road. I'm always amazed by how many cyclists don't use a mirror.....would you drive your car without one?? Yet we are vehicles on the road.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cohen on
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You shouldn't HAVE TO use a mirror, but you're an idiot not to. I'm all for the "Idaho stop", support the NY Bike Snob's rant on this annoying article, but still, I have to live in this world and I'm going to do what I can to keep myself safe even when doing an activity (biking) that current law and culture makes somewhat unsafe.
How many times has it happened to me that I'm commuting on the lake front path and some idiot riding with IPod buds in their ears and of course no mirror, responds to my "on your left" by attempting to make a left turn right in front me. Now, I could say, it's not my responsibility to take care of these other cyclists, I've called out "on your left", their fault if they can't hear me. But of course, I'll hurt myself too. So yeah, I wear the mirror, geeky though it makes me look and I wait until I see some visible response to my "on your left" before passing.
And no, I don't say you should use a mirror because cars do. I say you should use one because it's a way to keep yourself safe in an unsafe world.
Madopal (5.8 mi) said:Not entirely sure where to even start with this. First, yes, we should guarantee our safety. But "OUR responsibility?" I'd say that it's the responsibility of those driving around 2 ton vehicles not to harm anyone around them, it's not our responsibility to not be run over.
Second, mirrors: first, a car has a mirror because a) you're changing lanes when people could be overtaking, b) you're backing up and might need to look behind you, and c) you're turning and might need to check where things are. On a bike, a & b are non-starters. C could be an issue, but you can glance over your shoulder. The other possibility is a car coming up behind you that could hit you. Then, what is a bike going to do when a vehicle comes bearing down on them at 2x their speed or more? Hope to jump the curb and bail? And if this happens, what are the odds that you're looking in the mirror at the exact moment the vehicle is coming?
You should be looking forwards, because that's where everything is you can do anything about on a bike. If people want to use mirrors, that's their prerogative, but to say that you should use one because cars need one is a non sequitur at best.
Rich Scott said:It's OUR responsibility to do everything possible to make ourselves safe on the road. For me, that means I use a mirror. A good one! I use a helmet mounted mirror that allows me to see what's going on behind me and how cars are reacting to me being on the road. I'm always amazed by how many cyclists don't use a mirror.....would you drive your car without one?? Yet we are vehicles on the road.
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I agree but one slight demurral from the Bike Snob's approach. Follow the rules if there's infrastructure to support it. Well and good, but I was once pulled over by a cop in Lake Bluff for riding on the street instead of on a bike path. I wasn't endangering anyone, traffic was light. The attitude in Lake Bluff seems to be "we built you a goddamned bike path, why are you in the road". I don't like it.
In this situation the bike path wasn't clearly visible and I don't know how I missed it. I defused the situation by saying "I'll be glad to use the bike path, officer, if you'll show me where I can get on it." She did and that was the end of that. But I still don't like it.
Another place I'd rather ride is on ForestWay Drive in the Skokie Lagoons, instead of the bike path. Fortunately, there, there are no cops enforcing ordinances to prevent that.
Michael B said:As usual BSNYC nails it & this writer. http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/
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And go where, exactly? Not sure what roads you're riding on, but in the city, my choices are bike lane next to parked cars (and there's no where to bail to there), no lane next to parked cars (see last point), or no shoulder/curb (and jumping the curb isn't exactly a decent option).
Also, if anyone here who wears a mirror can give me a specific, actual example of when they escaped a situation coming up from behind with a mirror (as opposed to a hypothetical), I'd really like to hear the details of the situation. Because in all my 25 years riding, I can't remember a case where somehow I had some way to escape such a situation, even if I saw/heard it coming.
Rich Scott said:If I see them in my mirror I'm going to GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY ASAP! That's my point....it's your life....take responsibility for it.
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Please elaborate on how passing someone by saying "on your left" can at all be aided by a mirror, unless you're saying you're the one with the earbuds and someone is coming up behind you. I'm unclear on this.
Steve Cohen said:You shouldn't HAVE TO use a mirror, but you're an idiot not to. I'm all for the "Idaho stop", support the NY Bike Snob's rant on this annoying article, but still, I have to live in this world and I'm going to do what I can to keep myself safe even when doing an activity (biking) that current law and culture makes somewhat unsafe.
How many times has it happened to me that I'm commuting on the lake front path and some idiot riding with IPod buds in their ears and of course no mirror, responds to my "on your left" by attempting to make a left turn right in front me. Now, I could say, it's not my responsibility to take care of these other cyclists, I've called out "on your left", their fault if they can't hear me. But of course, I'll hurt myself too. So yeah, I wear the mirror, geeky though it makes me look and I wait until I see some visible response to my "on your left" before passing.
And no, I don't say you should use a mirror because cars do. I say you should use one because it's a way to keep yourself safe in an unsafe world.
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If the other person were wearing and using a mirror (or not wearing earbuds), they would not try to make a left turn in front of someone passing them. The mirror won't help the passer avoid the passee, but that wasn't my point. It might help the passer who was himself being passed but that's a different story.
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That's a farfetched scenario, I'll admit. The mirror is more to help YOU avoid encountering traffic coming up behind you, say, when trying to get around a parked car in the loop.
Madopal (5.8 mi) said:And go where, exactly? Not sure what roads you're riding on, but in the city, my choices are bike lane next to parked cars (and there's no where to bail to there), no lane next to parked cars (see last point), or no shoulder/curb (and jumping the curb isn't exactly a decent option).
Also, if anyone here who wears a mirror can give me a specific, actual example of when they escaped a situation coming up from behind with a mirror (as opposed to a hypothetical), I'd really like to hear the details of the situation. Because in all my 25 years riding, I can't remember a case where somehow I had some way to escape such a situation, even if I saw/heard it coming.
Rich Scott said:If I see them in my mirror I'm going to GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY ASAP! That's my point....it's your life....take responsibility for it.
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Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on
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I use a mirror religiously now, but I have never allowed myself to believe it makes me safer.
I think that like any tool, you have to constantly challenge yourself to be sure you're using it in a way that does increase your safety.
Not hard to imagine a scenario where someone gets a mirror, and the results of overreliance on it, or misinterpreting what it tells them are fatal.
Steve Cohen said:You shouldn't HAVE TO use a mirror, but you're an idiot not to. I'm all for the "Idaho stop", support the NY Bike Snob's rant on this annoying article, but still, I have to live in this world and I'm going to do what I can to keep myself safe even when doing an activity (biking) that current law and culture makes somewhat unsafe.
How many times has it happened to me that I'm commuting on the lake front path and some idiot riding with IPod buds in their ears and of course no mirror, responds to my "on your left" by attempting to make a left turn right in front me. Now, I could say, it's not my responsibility to take care of these other cyclists, I've called out "on your left", their fault if they can't hear me. But of course, I'll hurt myself too. So yeah, I wear the mirror, geeky though it makes me look and I wait until I see some visible response to my "on your left" before passing.
And no, I don't say you should use a mirror because cars do. I say you should use one because it's a way to keep yourself safe in an unsafe world.
Madopal (5.8 mi) said:Not entirely sure where to even start with this. First, yes, we should guarantee our safety. But "OUR responsibility?" I'd say that it's the responsibility of those driving around 2 ton vehicles not to harm anyone around them, it's not our responsibility to not be run over.
Second, mirrors: first, a car has a mirror because a) you're changing lanes when people could be overtaking, b) you're backing up and might need to look behind you, and c) you're turning and might need to check where things are. On a bike, a & b are non-starters. C could be an issue, but you can glance over your shoulder. The other possibility is a car coming up behind you that could hit you. Then, what is a bike going to do when a vehicle comes bearing down on them at 2x their speed or more? Hope to jump the curb and bail? And if this happens, what are the odds that you're looking in the mirror at the exact moment the vehicle is coming?
You should be looking forwards, because that's where everything is you can do anything about on a bike. If people want to use mirrors, that's their prerogative, but to say that you should use one because cars need one is a non sequitur at best.
Rich Scott said:It's OUR responsibility to do everything possible to make ourselves safe on the road. For me, that means I use a mirror. A good one! I use a helmet mounted mirror that allows me to see what's going on behind me and how cars are reacting to me being on the road. I'm always amazed by how many cyclists don't use a mirror.....would you drive your car without one?? Yet we are vehicles on the road.
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Permalink Reply by Eli on
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I don't doubt that mirrors have saved people from accidents now and then. But where do we draw the line in terms of putting social pressure on people?
They have those rear lights now that hook up to your brakes and get brighter when you apply them like car brake lights--I'm sure those could prevent some accidents. I know there have been times I've blown a stop sign because I had a car following very closely which I didn't think was expecting me to stop, and I was afraid of getting rear-ended--car-style brake lights would help in these situations. Should we start blaming people who don't have these lights when they get into such accidents?
The same is true of turn signal lights--I'm sure these would be a lot more noticeable to most drivers than hand signals (I am pretty sure a lot of drivers mistake my right-turn hand signal for a wave.) Should we start blaming people who don't have turn signal lights on their bike?
I bet there are times when having one of those super-loud air horns would save my life--my bell is pretty loud as bells go but it's still hard to hear from inside a car. Should we start blaming people whose accidents could have been avoided if they'd had an air horn?
There is no limit to the amount of safety equipment you can carry, but there has to be a limit to the amount we expect people to carry before we decide to stop blaming them for the cars that hit them--otherwise, we could blame every accident on the cyclist; after all, they could have been driving an armored tank and then they would have been fine! Where do we draw that limit?
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