E-Bikes and E-Scooter Rentals Won’t Be Allowed in N.Y. Anytime Soon - The Chainlink2024-03-28T20:48:14Zhttps://thechainlink.org/forum/topics/e-bikes-and-e-scooter-rentals-won-t-be-allowed-in-n-y-anytime?commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A1133183&feed=yes&xn_auth=noGood questions Phil, with ans…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-01-04:2211490:Comment:11332062020-01-04T00:08:01.157Zketoguychicagohttps://thechainlink.org/profile/ketoguychicago
<p>Good questions Phil, with answers here: </p>
<p>It is unusual for a boat to sink instantly, and so it's been observed that people have time to done the life jacket in an emergency. In some municipalities, a jet ski rider or wave runner (sort of what what a bike is to boat) wearing the life jacket is required. Kids have to wear them because they have more trouble putting it on themselves in an emergency. </p>
<p>Busses, because they're already so heavy and are generally so slow, do…</p>
<p>Good questions Phil, with answers here: </p>
<p>It is unusual for a boat to sink instantly, and so it's been observed that people have time to done the life jacket in an emergency. In some municipalities, a jet ski rider or wave runner (sort of what what a bike is to boat) wearing the life jacket is required. Kids have to wear them because they have more trouble putting it on themselves in an emergency. </p>
<p>Busses, because they're already so heavy and are generally so slow, do relatively "well" in a collision relative to other vehicles, so the cost/benefit works out better applied to other safety systems. (busses are a far safer form of transit per mile than cars, and even safer per mile than bikes) </p>
<p>Weight (keeping it low) is a major factor in planes, and per mile, commercial air travel is already way safer than cycling and driving per mile, although for smaller aircraft, Cirrus has actually piloted a built-in parachute model.</p>
<p>Helmets in cars are in fact a good idea (auto racers usually wear them) although the "virtual" helmet (the airbag) has been successfully designed to accomplish essentially the same thing for head protection, and the declining death per mile rate for automobiles demonstrates that this and related tactics are having that effect.</p>
<p>To the last question, why the emphasis on bike helmets, it's in part we're a cycling site, and, their effects are profound, perhaps as much as seatbelts were in cars before the airbag. Additional/related info (the dueling helmet studies theme) <a href="https://www.consumerreports.org/head-injuries/most-cyclists-who-suffer-head-injuries-arent-wearing-helmets/">https://www.consumerreports.org/head-injuries/most-cyclists-who-suffer-head-injuries-arent-wearing-helmets/</a></p> Our cities are better with mo…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-01-03:2211490:Comment:11331042020-01-03T15:33:03.873ZPhillip Hutchinsonhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/PhillipHutchinson
<p>Our cities are better with more people riding bikes and less cars. In my opinion, I'd rather people cycling without helmets than drive cars. I also believe the more people on bikes and less people in cars, the safer our cities will be. </p>
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<p>It's interesting that you bring up life jackets, but stop short of suggesting we need laws mandating that people wear life jackets while onboard boats. What about requiring drivers and passengers to wear helmets in cars? Parachutes for plane…</p>
<p>Our cities are better with more people riding bikes and less cars. In my opinion, I'd rather people cycling without helmets than drive cars. I also believe the more people on bikes and less people in cars, the safer our cities will be. </p>
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<p>It's interesting that you bring up life jackets, but stop short of suggesting we need laws mandating that people wear life jackets while onboard boats. What about requiring drivers and passengers to wear helmets in cars? Parachutes for plane passengers? Seat belts on buses? </p>
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<p>Why is there such a focus on bike helmets when it comes to improving safety? </p>
<p></p> Some additional information o…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-01-03:2211490:Comment:11332022020-01-03T04:24:48.696Zketoguychicagohttps://thechainlink.org/profile/ketoguychicago
<p>Some additional information on the tremendous importance of bike helmets with respect to safety/injury from The New England Journal of Medicine:</p>
<p> <a href="https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198905253202101">https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198905253202101</a></p>
<p>Here's the crux of it for NY State: A motorcycle in NY requires a helmet (right or wrong, it's understood that there's debate about the wisdom of that if we set aside the link above). Just as a car with…</p>
<p>Some additional information on the tremendous importance of bike helmets with respect to safety/injury from The New England Journal of Medicine:</p>
<p> <a href="https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198905253202101">https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198905253202101</a></p>
<p>Here's the crux of it for NY State: A motorcycle in NY requires a helmet (right or wrong, it's understood that there's debate about the wisdom of that if we set aside the link above). Just as a car with an electric motor still requires seatbelts (the Tesla example) a motorcycle rider still requires a helmet, even if the motorcycle motor is electric. The vetoed bill would have dropped the requirements to register a slow-ebike version (think citi-bike state-wide) and would have dropped the requirement to have insurance as well, and the governor would have signed it if only the helmet thing was kept in. </p> That's what they were going f…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-01-03:2211490:Comment:11331012020-01-03T00:53:58.472Zketoguychicagohttps://thechainlink.org/profile/ketoguychicago
<p>That's what they were going for - to address all three classes of them anyhow and try to true-up the regs state-wide. From the bill itself: </p>
<pre class="c-bill-fulltext">SUMMARY OF SPECIFIC PROVISIONS: This legislation authorizes <br></br>three classes of electric assist bicycles and electric scooters <br></br>to operate in New York State, <br></br>subject to local regulation. (more details in the bill)<br></br>Here's the NY Senate version of the bill…<br></br></pre>
<p>That's what they were going for - to address all three classes of them anyhow and try to true-up the regs state-wide. From the bill itself: </p>
<pre class="c-bill-fulltext">SUMMARY OF SPECIFIC PROVISIONS: This legislation authorizes <br/>three classes of electric assist bicycles and electric scooters <br/>to operate in New York State, <br/>subject to local regulation. (more details in the bill)<br/>Here's the NY Senate version of the bill<br/><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/s5294">https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/s5294</a></pre> Does this apply to all three…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-01-02:2211490:Comment:11330142020-01-02T23:21:59.540Zadhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/AdrianRohrer
<p>Does this apply to all three class levels of e-bikes, and if so, what impact does that have on the City's bikeshare system since Citibike was I though already rolling out Class 1 e-bikes? </p>
<p>Does this apply to all three class levels of e-bikes, and if so, what impact does that have on the City's bikeshare system since Citibike was I though already rolling out Class 1 e-bikes? </p> Indeed, mandatory helmet laws…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-01-02:2211490:Comment:11332862020-01-02T23:11:01.403Zketoguychicagohttps://thechainlink.org/profile/ketoguychicago
<p>Indeed, mandatory helmet laws discourage cycling <span style="text-decoration: underline;">without a helmet.</span> That's the whole point - to discourage the activity without the safety measure in place. </p>
<p>Mandatory car seat laws discourage parents from driving their small child around a car without a booster seat. Again, the entire point. Mandatory lifejacket laws in boats discourage people from boating without life jackets on board. </p>
<p>So, what are people to do? Get a…</p>
<p>Indeed, mandatory helmet laws discourage cycling <span style="text-decoration: underline;">without a helmet.</span> That's the whole point - to discourage the activity without the safety measure in place. </p>
<p>Mandatory car seat laws discourage parents from driving their small child around a car without a booster seat. Again, the entire point. Mandatory lifejacket laws in boats discourage people from boating without life jackets on board. </p>
<p>So, what are people to do? Get a booster seat, get a life jacket, get a helmet if we want to do these activities. Otherwise, don't. Don't ride a Divvy without a helmet. As mentioned elsewhere, folks like dueling studies on helmet efficacy. Here's an important summary of a study of dozens of such studies: </p>
<p><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29677686">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29677686</a></p> Well said. Thank you for thi…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-01-02:2211490:Comment:11331962020-01-02T20:24:12.304ZBob Kastigarhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/BobKastigar
<p>Well said. Thank you for this post and for providing the information.</p>
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<p>Does the ATA have a position on this legal requirement?</p>
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<p>Well said. Thank you for this post and for providing the information.</p>
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<p>Does the ATA have a position on this legal requirement?</p>
<p></p> Helmet use and mandatory helm…tag:thechainlink.org,2020-01-02:2211490:Comment:11332852020-01-02T15:00:16.015ZPhillip Hutchinsonhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/PhillipHutchinson
<p>Helmet use and mandatory helmet laws are two different things. </p>
<p>Do I think it's a good idea to always wear a helmet when riding a bike or scooter? Yes.<br></br>Do I think it's a good idea to criminalize the act of riding a bike or scooter without a helmet? No.</p>
<p>Do I think helmet laws will make cycling and e-scooting safer, especially in cities like NYC or Chicago? Absolutely not. </p>
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<p><em>"While requiring helmets may seem like an intuitive way to protect riders,…</em></p>
<p>Helmet use and mandatory helmet laws are two different things. </p>
<p>Do I think it's a good idea to always wear a helmet when riding a bike or scooter? Yes.<br/>Do I think it's a good idea to criminalize the act of riding a bike or scooter without a helmet? No.</p>
<p>Do I think helmet laws will make cycling and e-scooting safer, especially in cities like NYC or Chicago? Absolutely not. </p>
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<p><em>"While requiring helmets may seem like an intuitive way to protect riders, the evidence doesn’t bear this out. Experience has shown that while bike helmets can be protective, bike helmet laws are not."</em></p>
<p><a href="https://nacto.org/2019/11/08/helmet-laws/">https://nacto.org/2019/11/08/helmet-laws/</a></p>
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<p><em>"The likelihood that a given person walking or bicycling will be struck by a motorist varies inversely with the amount of walking or bicycling."</em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/9/3/205.short">https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/9/3/205.short</a></em></p>
<ul>
<li>Mandatory helmet laws actively discourage people from riding bikes (or e-scooters).</li>
<li>Mandatory helmet laws will cause massive drops in use of bike-share systems like Divvy, which puts the future of these systems at-risk.</li>
<li>Mandatory helmet law enforcement will be unequally applied, and used by police to stop and harass minorities.</li>
</ul>
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<p>If cities (or states, or the federal government) want to take serious actions to make cycling safer, they would start requiring robust bike infrastructure on all streets, fully fund and promote bike share systems (including e-bikes and e-scooters), and ban cars from dense urban areas where they cause the most carnage. Our streets are increasingly dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians (and e-scooter riders) because of cars. Helmets provide very little protection from motor vehicle impacts. </p>
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<p>Mandatory bike helmet laws are not a serious attempt to make cycling safer. </p>
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<p><em>"If you want to make cycling safer, start with good infrastructure: build segregated cyclepaths. I am against the false idea of security that helmets offer. They may have some protective value, but not as much as people tend to think. And why all this focus on protecting the head?’’ he adds jokingly. “If you want to be really safe, you should also consider elbow, knee and back protection. And why all this emphasis on the need to wear helmets on bikes? The majority of head injuries occur in cars, but motorist wouldn’t dream of wearing a helmet!”</em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/oct/12/bike-helmets-compulsory-seattle-amsterdam-cycling-safety">https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/oct/12/bike-helmets-compulsory-seattle-amsterdam-cycling-safety</a></em></p>
<p></p> https://www.theguardian.com/l…tag:thechainlink.org,2019-12-31:2211490:Comment:11330002019-12-31T04:43:02.412Zketoguychicagohttps://thechainlink.org/profile/ketoguychicago
<p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/sep/22/bicycle-helmets-reduce-risk-of-serious-head-injury-by-nearly-70-study-finds" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/sep/22/bicycle-helmet...</a></p>
<p>The auto industry went through their anti-seatbelt phase for a while too. Certainly they have their limitations when facing a bridge abutment. But since they're now mainstream, from what I gather, few people wearing either make an effort in the last seconds…</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/sep/22/bicycle-helmets-reduce-risk-of-serious-head-injury-by-nearly-70-study-finds">https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/sep/22/bicycle-helmet...</a></p>
<p>The auto industry went through their anti-seatbelt phase for a while too. Certainly they have their limitations when facing a bridge abutment. But since they're now mainstream, from what I gather, few people wearing either make an effort in the last seconds before impact to remove them. Same/same for helmets. The motorcycle folks have their staunch opposition to helmets too, and everybody's got dueling studies, both of our links included.</p>
<p>As we're sort of touching on, much of the anti-helmet campaigning is often a "point the finger at someone/something else" campaign (e.g.cars, SUVs, or politicians) in an effort to make changes with those spheres, but at the cost of the opportunity to promote helmets and safety elsewhere.</p>
<p>So, mandatory helmets? Sort of depends on our view of a free society. Mandating them certainly isn't very laissez-faire, although nor is society has to pick up the hospital tab for an injured driver/cyclist/motorcyclist. </p>
<p>Elsewhere there'd been a great cycling helmet that had a face/chin guard, but it wasn't rated for downhill/mountain biking or some such rating, so it was taken off the market which was unfortunate. </p>
<p>Back to NY, the state veto wasn't to victim-blame, just to get the helmet thing in with the scooters. Essentially, NY (the state) views eScooters like mopeds, like motorcycles. Sort of the way Illinois views an e-car like a Tesla as a car, with no carve-out for registration or seatbelts. </p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/register-moped">https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/register-moped</a></p>
<p>My hunch is if only the helmet thing had stayed in place (just as for motorcycles) the bill might have been signed, although as I'm reading elsewhere, there's actually a totally unrelated spat with one of the eScooter bill's sponsors that lead to some of the veto too, which is unfortunate. </p> I get where Phil is coming fr…tag:thechainlink.org,2019-12-31:2211490:Comment:11330822019-12-31T03:32:28.163ZYasmeenhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/YasmeenSchuller
<p>I get where Phil is coming from re: helmet laws. New York has a tendency to victim blame with cyclists. This will only make the situation worse.</p>
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<p>Sharing an article about helmets here:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/how-effective-are-bike-helmet-laws/521997/" target="_blank">https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/how-effective-are-bike-helmet-laws/521997/</a></p>
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<p>I can understand an under 18 helmet law but adults shouldn’t be…</p>
<p>I get where Phil is coming from re: helmet laws. New York has a tendency to victim blame with cyclists. This will only make the situation worse.</p>
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<p>Sharing an article about helmets here:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/how-effective-are-bike-helmet-laws/521997/" target="_blank">https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/how-effective-are-bike-helmet-laws/521997/</a></p>
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<p>I can understand an under 18 helmet law but adults shouldn’t be mandated to wear helmets. It also ignores the real reason cyclists are in danger - reckless and/or distracted drivers are more of the real issue. The helmet can only do so much. </p>