8 year old victim of a hit and run
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Richard Jarrow on
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I'm going to respond to both H and Michelle here..
First off, I'm not making this about blaming the 8 year old girl. But when I was 8 years old I was not allowed to ride my bike in the street. 8 year olds have no concept of traffic, they're unaware of their surroundings and won't take into consideration the consequences of their actions. I suspect most folks here would enforce the same rules on their young children. The article specifically says the only witness to the accident were her other young friends. No parental supervision, no adult to watch them - regardless of what the law 'allows' her to do, it was just a couple 8 year olds playing traffic. That said, does this in any way reduce the blame on a hit and run driver? Heck no! Does it negate any sympathy I have for a family who lost their child in a stupid, senseless, entirely preventable tragic accident? No, absolutely not.
H - I have joined online bicycling communities (not hiding and using my real name... H) because I have long felt it personally necessary to speak up in favor of better bicyclist safety and stricter adherence to the existing traffic law. Many folks here will speak well of following the traffic signs, but this is not what people see when in traffic. The hostile feelings cyclists have towards drivers in traffic is outrageous, as if they believe bicycles are the apex of transportation and everyone else should just get out of their way. Now, does this mean I don't support bicycle transportation for various economic, health and traffic congestion reasons? No, I fully support bike lanes and such in traffic. And I'm not here to just vent or argue.. Debate, however, is a healthy and natural way to find solutions I will challenge people to explain and justify their attitudes and actions, as I would expect to do for others.
h' said:Reframe, Michelle.
This is an opportunity to get someone who joined an "online bicycle community" just to vent their negative and borderline hostile feelings towards cyclists to consider getting a bike and using it for transportation.
Can we rise to the occasion?
Michelle Gregorek said:Richard? I am getting tired of you. But, but, but..you want to somehow twist this to be the young girls fault, or to look for her fault? I really want to say a word that starts with f, followed by you. With the "biking rules" you want to always refer to, she does not HAVE to ride on the sidewalk, but the law allows her to. (God, please don't allow me to become hateful as I age.)
To the community....if my response is offensive, I am sorry.
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Permalink Reply by Thunder Snow on
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Richard, I grew up on the Northwest Side, in the Irving Park/Albany Park area near Montrose & Kedzie. The street and alley were precisely where we staged full-on softball and touch football games, among other play activities. If we played across the lawns, at least one cranky neighbor would complain that we were tearing up their sod. Approaching cars would sit and wait a moment until after the current play had completed, then we'd clear the street or alley for a few moments to allow the cars passage. I suspect this is common all over Chicago. If you grew up in a place with large nearby parks or wide lawns with beneficent neighbors, I can understand your confusion.
Richard Jarrow said:
But when I was 8 years old I was not allowed to ride my bike in the street.
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Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on
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So what would it take to get you on a bicycle? Do you own a working bicycle now?
Richard Jarrow said:I'm going to respond to both H and Michelle here..
First off, I'm not making this about blaming the 8 year old girl. But when I was 8 years old I was not allowed to ride my bike in the street. 8 year olds have no concept of traffic, they're unaware of their surroundings and won't take into consideration the consequences of their actions. I suspect most folks here would enforce the same rules on their young children. The article specifically says the only witness to the accident were her other young friends. No parental supervision, no adult to watch them - regardless of what the law 'allows' her to do, it was just a couple 8 year olds playing traffic. That said, does this in any way reduce the blame on a hit and run driver? Heck no! Does it negate any sympathy I have for a family who lost their child in a stupid, senseless, entirely preventable tragic accident? No, absolutely not.
H - I have joined online bicycling communities (not hiding and using my real name... H) because I have long felt it personally necessary to speak up in favor of better bicyclist safety and stricter adherence to the existing traffic law. Many folks here will speak well of following the traffic signs, but this is not what people see when in traffic. The hostile feelings cyclists have towards drivers in traffic is outrageous, as if they believe bicycles are the apex of transportation and everyone else should just get out of their way. Now, does this mean I don't support bicycle transportation for various economic, health and traffic congestion reasons? No, I fully support bike lanes and such in traffic. And I'm not here to just vent or argue.. Debate, however, is a healthy and natural way to find solutions I will challenge people to explain and justify their attitudes and actions, as I would expect to do for others.
h' said:Reframe, Michelle.
This is an opportunity to get someone who joined an "online bicycle community" just to vent their negative and borderline hostile feelings towards cyclists to consider getting a bike and using it for transportation.
Can we rise to the occasion?
Michelle Gregorek said:Richard? I am getting tired of you. But, but, but..you want to somehow twist this to be the young girls fault, or to look for her fault? I really want to say a word that starts with f, followed by you. With the "biking rules" you want to always refer to, she does not HAVE to ride on the sidewalk, but the law allows her to. (God, please don't allow me to become hateful as I age.)
To the community....if my response is offensive, I am sorry.
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Devon and Western. Fairly congested, and yeah we had Warren Park across Western, but there was always enough cross-traffic down Artesian (this was before speed bumps on side streets) that it was a neighborhood thing - none of the kids my age rode on the streets. Cross the streets and ride wherever in the neighborhood pretty much, but ride on the sidewalk - especially at that young an age.
Thunder Snow said:Richard, I grew up on the Northwest Side, in the Irving Park/Albany Park area near Montrose & Kedzie. The street and alley were precisely where we staged full-on softball and touch football games, among other play activities. If we played across the lawns, at least one cranky neighbor would complain that we were tearing up their sod. Approaching cars would sit and wait a moment until after the current play had completed, then we'd clear the street or alley for a few moments to allow the cars passage. I suspect this is common all over Chicago. If you grew up in a place with large nearby parks or wide lawns with beneficent neighbors, I can understand your confusion.
Richard Jarrow said:
But when I was 8 years old I was not allowed to ride my bike in the street.
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A new set of lungs? :-P Seriously, I have been an asthma sufferer, badly. Actually, it was worse as a teen and in my 20s than is has been through my 30s, and I'm probably in better shape now than at 22 cuz I do so much more walking. The last bike I had was a Trek 500 or 800 mountain bike in the 90s, that I would try to use to exercise on the forest preserve trails. Stationary bike in my condo and walking to and from work via the train is my main exercise now.
For years bicycling simply wasn't a viable commuter option for me, either I'd need my car for my job, or I'd work too far away in the suburbs while living in the city. The 30 mile each-way commute is not bike friendly for me. Fortunately the last couple years have all been jobs downtown so the train is a no-brainer. I also can't show up at work first thing looking like a drowned rat either having been rained on or all sweaty and nasty after I just worked out.
It wouldn't take much to convince me to ride but like I said it's not a viable commuter option for me.
h' said:So what would it take to get you on a bicycle? Do you own a working bicycle now?
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I can't disagree that personal experience differs from place to place. That's a truism and not up for questioning. Your argument stands up if it was a quiet residential neighborhood, but it was clearly not. With the addition of the suntimes article bashing the city for not putting in speed bumps and the complaining of that street being a cut-through and speed strip for cars, I question even more why those kids were allowed to play in traffic. Not to mention that the one near-witness account was that a lady 'heard the bump' and came running out. So there were adults nearby, but not really watching the kids. At this point I place responsibility on the hit-and-run driver and the parents.
Speaking to your experience of 'allowing' cars through only after you completed your play? Seriously? If there's kids playing or someone in the street I'll give them time to clear out of the way, but not wait there while they continue to play. That's just plain rude. The street is for cars, not pedestrians.
Thunder Snow said:So you understand my point that personal experience differs from place to place. To say that bicycle riding by kids in the street is unthinkable, even if it was in your own particular street, doesn't mean it's not the norm in most other Chicago neighborhoods. When the temperature peaked 85, the fire hydrant on the corner was opened and a dozen or more kids, some still wearing diapers, would be dancing and shouting in the street, in the cool spray of water. Motorists understood that they were driving through an impromptu playground, and crawled through the spray at less than walking speed. When we had a game of football going in the middle of the street, we'd allow cars through only after a down or completed pass was accomplished. We lived on that street; it belonged to us. Why would we have ceded it to cars only? I would suggest that not playing in the street is more of a suburban cultural attitude rather than urban, no matter what the precise geography of your upbringing. And I've seen photos of kids playing in the hydrants in the streets of New York and Los Angeles as well, so I know it's not just Chicago.
As far as your criticism of the lack of adult supervision in the Crisotomo case, unless you're rich enough to afford an au pair or nanny, or your parents didn't work until 5:00 PM, adults watching kids play every moment can be a rare thing.
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And therein lies the fallacious crux of your argument.
Richard Jarrow said:The street is for cars, not pedestrians.
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Permalink Reply by Tim S on
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Richard I believe you are in the wrong part of the internets for your beliefs. I think you will find a majority of Chainlinkers are willing to take and assign blame where it is due, you are grasping at the sidelines in order to develop a case to support the horrible actions of an adult. Its almost like blaming a woman for rape cause she dressed all sexy like.
I see kids playing on the side streets in every neighbourhood of Chicago, drivers should be aware when driving in residential areas.
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LOL!! It's not a fallacious argument. Sidewalks are for pedestrians. Why else would they exist?
Someone else just posted the pedestrian rules for crossing the street..which implies unless you're crossing, you stay OFF the street if you're a pedestrian. Also please note item B in that section of the code, yielding right of way to the cars. Keep playing and 'allow' the cars to proceed when you deem it acceptable - LOL
Crossing at other than crosswalks, extracted from the Illinois Vehicle Code, Rules of the Road, 625 ILCS 5/11-1003
Sec. 11-1003.
Crossing at other than crosswalks.
(a) Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.
(b) Any pedestrian crossing a roadway at a point where a pedestrian tunnel or overhead pedestrian crossing has been provided shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.
(c) Between adjacent intersections at which traffic-control signals are in operation pedestrians shall not cross at any place except in a marked crosswalk.
(d) No pedestrian shall cross a roadway intersection diagonally unless authorized by official traffic-control devices; and, when authorized to cross diagonally, pedestrians shall cross only in accordance with the official traffic-control devices pertaining to such crossing movements.
(e) Pedestrians with disabilities may cross a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk where the intersection is physically inaccessible to them but they shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.
(Source: P.A. 88-685, eff. 1-24-95.)
Thunder Snow said:And therein lies the fallacious crux of your argument.
Richard Jarrow said:The street is for cars, not pedestrians.
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If you believe I'm trying to lay blame on the little girl, you need to re-read what I posted. Please. And if you seriously think my attitude is of the 'she got what she deserved' line of reasoning I'd say you completely missed the point of what I'm saying and that you don't know me at all! YES, drivers should be aware in the streets - bicycles, too - but if a group of unsupervised kids is playing on what all the parents and newspapers are now branding a dangerously fast busy sidestreet I have to question their judgement in letting those kids play there in the first place. That seems a reasonable assignment of blame to me.
Tim S said:Richard I believe you are in the wrong part of the internets for your beliefs. I think you will find a majority of Chainlinkers are willing to take and assign blame where it is due, you are grasping at the sidelines in order to develop a case to support the horrible actions of an adult. Its almost like blaming a woman for rape cause she dressed all sexy like.
I see kids playing on the side streets in every neighbourhood of Chicago, drivers should be aware when driving in residential areas.
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Permalink Reply by Melanie K on
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All blame aside, the crux of this problem isn't that kids shouldn't be playing in the streets, but that people need to take responsibility for their actions- the man hit a child and ran off like a coward which seems to be the case in a lot of cycling accidents. It seems that if a driver thinks he can run off he won't have to take any responsibility for his/her actions.
If this sub-human would have stopped and took some responsibility for hitting that child, maybe, just maybe, we could say "the kids shouldn't play in the street and this is a terrible, tragic accident and both drivers need to be more careful and parents should be more aware of where their kids are playing" but this jerk fled the scene, not even stopping to check on the child and killing an innocent baby in the process, without an iota of guilt or compassion for what he did wrong, all because he was too self-concerned about himself and not caring for what happened to that innocent child or the pain he brought to that child's family. This is why it is this driving low-life's fault- no matter what the child did or where the kid was- because this man has no excuse to run off and leave that baby in the street.
This comes from a step-mother of an 8 year old girl that loves to ride her bike with us, so I am extremely furious that this jerk is skulking around and hiding and I hope they bring him to justice soon.
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