Running Red Lights & Pedestrian Cross Walks
I am a casual commuter bicyclist. I ride to work down Milwaukee via my bike or the 56 bus. (Bucktown to West Loop)
One thing I notice during my commutes is that at certain "T" intersections 19 out of 20 bicyclists will not stop at the red light and pass through it. It doesn't matter if there are pedestrians at cross-walks or incoming traffic. Some will not even slow down.
Personally, it drives me crazy. I find it to be completely irresponsible, dangerous and discourteous at these times of day. It wouldn't concern me as much if it was not during rush hour. However, we are talking about people trying to use the crosswalks and cars attempting to drive normally and merge onto busy roads.
Example: Milwaukee & Wabansia - This intersection has 2 crosswalks across Milwaukee. It has a day care & public library. Foot traffic is high with parents/kids/strollers and commuters. Bicyclists do not stop even if there are people crossing or traffic coming onto Milwaukee. I have seen them swerve around strollers and disregard any safety concerns. Personally I have almost been hit once, saw 2 near collisions with strollers and people held up from crossing because of a stream of unconcerned bicyclists.
Example: Milwaukee & Noble - This intersection has one highly used crosswalk across Milwaukee. It is by a school with a lot of student pedestrians (with a crossing guard) and a good amount of senior citizens. Again, Bicyclist run this red all of the time even if there are people crossing. Personally, I have seen near collisions with groups of students, 3 seniors and cars making left turns.
If this was a rare occurrence I wouldn't be posting. In fact, this issue alone prompted me to create an account and post at Chainlink.
I want to understand WHY people think this is okay and don't think it is a danger to themselves and others?
Why can't they stop?
Why do they not care about the safety of others?
Why do they not care about the rules of the road?
The mindset is what I'm looking to understand. Right now I just think they are selfish a-holes who value their time/safety/space more than others. On days with near collisions I even get angry to the point of yelling. (I saw an old woman missed by nearly 3 inches. [http://abcnews.go.com/US/bicyclist-us-guilty-vehicular-homicide/sto...])
I want to be proven wrong and have an understanding of why this happens.
Thanks,
KZ
Views: 3371
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on
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Oh ok, so it's not ok for others to decide to not follow the same rules you do. Sounds like you need to go sit on the toilet and lose a few pounds.
MFrank said:Lots of people decide that every day. I'm sure you've been cut off by numerous taxis, buses, and angry drivers just like me and everyone else on this thread. Of course it's not ok to get run over but I can't decide what rules/laws other people choose to follow. I can just react, whether I was in the right or not.
Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:What I meant was, is it ok for others to run you over since "I don't live my life by your rules, you don't have to live by mine."? So if one of your rules is 'Don't run over me.', is it ok if someone decides that your little rule there doesn't apply to them?
MFrank said:One of my rules is passing on the left and saying "on your left" so i guess so. So far in life ive run over 0 people
Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:One of your rules wouldn't be 'Don't run me over' would it?
MFrank said:I run red lights down Milwaukee in my commute. This is me not feeling bad.
I don't live my life by your rules, you don't have to live by mine.
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Permalink Reply by pat 5.5mi on
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MFrank's position (atleast when it comes to riding a bike) demonstrates a complete lack of empathy and extreme self-absorption, and is proud of it.
The increased likelihood of injury/disruption to others has no input into the decision making process when he rides. If there is a chance for him to take a course of action that will make him better off (ex. get to work faster) he will take it irrespective of the potential negative effect it will have on others. He is even proud of this position.
He says, if no one is going to stop me (or if my benefit outweighs the possible penalty) i'm doing it. If he acts with the same moral code in other aspects of his life, maybe:
- he litters.
- he eats the last slice of pizza.
- he gives a small tip when he knows he won't be returning to a restaurant.
- he gives large mortgages to poorly qualified borrowers.
- he leaves his bag on the seat next to him on the bus when a pregnant woman is standing
- he cuts down the rainforest.
- he is the cigarette manufacturer who targets ads to children so as to increase his profits.
- he leaves just enough beer in the pitcher so he doesn't have to refill it.
- he drives a fuel inefficient car/truck.
- he likes the yankees
- he shoals (oh wait, he doesn't even stop)
I'm sure the list goes on. This behavior is understandable if he is young (<25? maybe) and doesn;t have the life experience to know better. If he is older, then I resent MFrank because this "fuck everyone else" mindset is the cause of all of society's problems.
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Permalink Reply by Skip Montanaro 0mi on
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pat 5.5mi said:The increased likelihood of injury/disruption to others has no input into the decision making process when he rides. If there is a chance for him to take a course of action that will make him better off (ex. get to work faster) he will take it irrespective of the potential negative effect it will have on others. He is even proud of this position.
I wonder... Has anyone actually encountered MFrank on the street? Maybe he's actually a very polite, law-abiding bike rider, but is trolling the group here.
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Permalink Reply by MFrank on
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I'm sorry, my '5th grade intellect' doesn't get this. Let me remove the double negative and try to make sense of this:
"so it's ok for others to decide to follow the same rules you do." (That's the logical contrapositive)
yea totally! I'm glad we see things eye to eye!
Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:Oh ok, so it's not ok for others to decide to not follow the same rules you do. Sounds like you need to go sit on the toilet and lose a few pounds.
MFrank said:(deleted for brevity)
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Thanks Skip.
I'm trying to stay on point. Truth is, I ride up and down Milwaukee to work every day, so I believe my input is valid because it follows what the original poster intended to discuss, whether people agree with me or not.
"I want to understand WHY people think this is okay and don't think it is a danger to themselves and others?"
Why can't they stop?
-no one is going to stop me if I run a red light. I've made this point 3 times now.
Why do they not care about the safety of others?
-I don't believe I put the safety of others in jeopardy because after 8 years of riding daily I've injured zero people.
Why do they not care about the rules of the road?"
-see the answer to question 1.
Skip Montanaro 12mi said:
I wonder... Has anyone actually encountered MFrank on the street? Maybe he's actually a very polite, law-abiding bike rider, but is trolling the group here.
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Permalink Reply by Duppie on
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Nobody asked you to defend jumping a red light to get rid of a drunk driver at 3 am. I agree that would be acceptable.
The OP asked why we think it is OK to blow red lights and cut-off pedestrians
Still waiting on somebody to answer that question.
Michael Perez said:I'm an aggressive commuter and well you sometimes have to break those traffics laws to save your ass. I disagree with running red lights but if theres a drunk driver behind you at 3 am, just run the damn light to get them off your tail. I believe in the idaho stop, it makes sense and keeps you clipped in(for those with cleats) and strapped in for those with straps.
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Sorry Pat,
You're not describing me, you're describing capitalism and market-based decision making. That's a different topic for a different thread.
You can assume all day and night, but if you want to know things about me, you can always ask. (although I do admit to eating the last slice of pizza from time to time, you got that one right)
pat 5.5mi said:MFrank's position (atleast when it comes to riding a bike) demonstrates a complete lack of empathy and extreme self-absorption, and is proud of it.
The increased likelihood of injury/disruption to others has no input into the decision making process when he rides. If there is a chance for him to take a course of action that will make him better off (ex. get to work faster) he will take it irrespective of the potential negative effect it will have on others. He is even proud of this position.
He says, if no one is going to stop me (or if my benefit outweighs the possible penalty) i'm doing it. If he acts with the same moral code in other aspects of his life, maybe:
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Personally, If a pedestrian is in a cross walk with the right of way (walk sign or flashing red), then I agree you should not cut them off. If they are jay-walking, then the onus of their safety is on them. I don't run them over, but I'll tell them "Make Way!" or "Heads Up" because they are disrupting the flow of traffic.
Duppie 13.5185km said:Nobody asked you to defend jumping a red light to get rid of a drunk driver at 3 am. I agree that would be acceptable.
The OP asked why we think it is OK to blow red lights and cut-off pedestrians
Still waiting on somebody to answer that question.
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gotcha, thanks! It's hard to read on an iPhone sometimes.
Cameron 7.5 mi said:I believe Duppie was questioning why you started defending yourself as not being ignorant when when you were accused of being arrogant.
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Permalink Reply by Adam Herstein on
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MFrank (as a motorist) would say:
Personally, If a cyclist is in a street with the right of way (green light), then I agree you should not cut them off. If they are running red lights, then the onus of their safety is on them. I don't run them over, but I'll tell them "Make Way!" or "Heads Up" because they are disrupting the flow of traffic.
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More or less yea, if you run a red light on a bike then the onus of your safety is on you. If you run a red light and get hit by a motorist with the right of way, it's your own fault. I think we can all agree on that.
Adam Herstein (5.5 mi) said:MFrank (as a motorist) would say:
Personally, If a cyclist is in a street with the right of way (green light), then I agree you should not cut them off. If they are running red lights, then the onus of their safety is on them. I don't run them over, but I'll tell them "Make Way!" or "Heads Up" because they are disrupting the flow of traffic.
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Cameron 7.5 mi said:
A bike isn't going to do as much damage as a car, but it's still going to really hurt.
Sometimes it's going to really, really hurt. http://road.cc/content/news/89218-us-cyclist-who-killed-pedestrian-...
MFrank, your comments indicate that you believe you've never impacted other people during your commutes. Perhaps that's true. Why risk what the guy in the road.cc article is going through (or the guy he hit)?
Follow-up question... How long is your commute (time and distance)? Do you know things like average and max speeds? How much slower would your trip to work be if you stopped or slowed down for street lights, at least on major thoroughfares? What times of the day do you commute?
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