Running Red Lights & Pedestrian Cross Walks

I am a casual commuter bicyclist. I ride to work down Milwaukee via my bike or the 56 bus. (Bucktown to West Loop)

One thing I notice during my commutes is that at certain "T" intersections 19 out of 20 bicyclists will not stop at the red light and pass through it. It doesn't matter if there are pedestrians at cross-walks or incoming traffic. Some will not even slow down.

Personally, it drives me crazy. I find it to be completely irresponsible, dangerous and discourteous at these times of day. It wouldn't concern me as much if it was not during rush hour. However, we are talking about people trying to use the crosswalks and cars attempting to drive normally and merge onto busy roads.

Example: Milwaukee & Wabansia - This intersection has 2 crosswalks across Milwaukee. It has a day care & public library. Foot traffic is high with parents/kids/strollers and commuters. Bicyclists do not stop even if there are people crossing or traffic coming onto Milwaukee. I have seen them swerve around strollers and disregard any safety concerns. Personally I have almost been hit once, saw 2 near collisions with strollers and people held up from crossing because of a stream of unconcerned bicyclists.

Example: Milwaukee & Noble - This intersection has one highly used crosswalk across Milwaukee. It is by a school with a lot of student pedestrians (with a crossing guard) and a good amount of senior citizens. Again, Bicyclist run this red all of the time even if there are people crossing. Personally, I have seen near collisions with groups of students, 3 seniors and cars making left turns.

If this was a rare occurrence I wouldn't be posting. In fact, this issue alone prompted me to create an account and post at Chainlink.

I want to understand WHY people think this is okay and don't think it is a danger to themselves and others?

Why can't they stop?

Why do they not care about the safety of others?

Why do they not care about the rules of the road?

The mindset is what I'm looking to understand. Right now I just think they are selfish a-holes who value their time/safety/space more than others. On days with near collisions I even get angry to the point of yelling. (I saw an old woman missed by nearly 3 inches. [http://abcnews.go.com/US/bicyclist-us-guilty-vehicular-homicide/sto...])

I want to be proven wrong and have an understanding of why this happens.

Thanks,

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by MFrank on August 8, 2013 at 1:00pm

I disagree. I believe that projecting your views onto others with no grounds is the sense of entitlement that causes conflict. I'm not saying the way you ride is ride or wrong. But how you get to determine how I or other people get to ride?

Lisa Curcio 6.5 mi said:

And the sense of entitlement that is ubiquitous in most aspects of life in the U.S. today and causes so much conflict . . .

igz said:

the arrogance is strong with this one...

MFrank said:

I run red lights down Milwaukee in my commute. This is me not feeling bad.

I don't live my life by your rules, you don't have to live by mine.

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Permalink Reply by Adam Herstein on August 8, 2013 at 1:08pm

MFrank said:

But how you get to determine how I or other people get to ride?

The law.

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Permalink Reply by Lisa Curcio on August 8, 2013 at 1:23pm

Yes, the law. Your view is more along the the lines of Anarchy:

1 a : absence of government

b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority

c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order

b : absence of order

While I, and perhaps others, believe that anarchy is properly defined as 1 a and b and 2 a and b, you seem to espouse definition 1 c.

Adam Herstein (5.5 mi) said:

MFrank said:
But how you get to determine how I or other people get to ride?

The law.

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Permalink Reply by Reba 4.0 mi on August 8, 2013 at 1:44pm

Well, instead of arguing the person, how about arguing the argument.

TomD said, a while back....

bikes need certain routes to serve the same need as expressways serve for cars

I'd like to think that this could be true, that those who don't want to live by my rules should be able to ride as they like. I don't always follow the law.

[EDIT after reading Lisa on Anarchy: the Law is defined collectively and through compromise and by those of us who choose to participate. I find it very easy to disagree with the Law and to feel as if it's imposed on us. Anarchy can also mean arguing for the ability to redefine the social order in a more collective, open and less coercive manner. It doesn't have to mean lawlessness. In my mind, it means creating space for others to live in ways that I had not yet imagined or considered - something that the Law (capital L) isn't very good at.]

I also never ride on Milwaukee Ave. AND FOLKS WHO CREATE CHAOS IN THEIR WAKE SHOULDN'T EITHER. There are routes where following the laws/rules/customs of the majority are just plain practical and sane; there are routes where riding the way you want is fine and dandy and expedient.

I very expediently get to work by avoiding all those yahoos on Milwaukee, taking the less direct (slightly longer) route. I encounter 75% fewer red lights, 60% less traffic, at least 90% fewer cyclists, and 99% fewer pedestrians. Seems to me if you want to fly this is the way to go. Why travel on an overcrowded, pedestrian heavy street?

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Permalink Reply by Duppie on August 8, 2013 at 2:06pm

asking me to elaborate proves my point, doesn't it?

MFrank said:

elaborate?

Duppie 13.5185km said:

So, you're not ignorant.

But your reading skills approach those of a 5th grader...

MFrank said:

ignorance: lack of information.

I don't lack information; I'm pretty well informed.

We've already established in this thread that its ok to run certain red lights (like at the top of a T intersection, i.e. Milwaukee/Elston or Milwaukee/Noble), so most of us knowingly break the law, or believe in our own judgement as to which red lights are 'ok' to run and which aren't.

I don't come to a complete stop at every stop sign and put my foot on the ground and I'm assuming you don't either. We are living in the grey area of illegal actions that are not enforced (albieit not designed for bikes either), I'm just in a different position in the area of grey than you and I'm willing to state my position. God forbid there be some dissent in bike land.

Am I wrong for choosing to ride how I want and not the way you want me to ride? None of us ride to the letter of the law, so why is it that what you believe is ok for you but what I believe is not ok for me?

igz said:

the arrogance is strong with this one...

MFrank said:

I run red lights down Milwaukee in my commute. This is me not feeling bad.

I don't live my life by your rules, you don't have to live by mine.

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Permalink Reply by Tom Dworzanski on August 8, 2013 at 2:42pm

Hallelujah!

Reba 4.0 mi said:

I also never ride on Milwaukee Ave. AND FOLKS WHO CREATE CHAOS IN THEIR WAKE SHOULDN'T EITHER. There are routes where following the laws/rules/customs of the majority are just plain practical and sane; there are routes where riding the way you want is fine and dandy and expedient.

I very expediently get to work by avoiding all those yahoos on Milwaukee, taking the less direct (slightly longer) route. I encounter 75% fewer red lights, 60% less traffic, at least 90% fewer cyclists, and 99% fewer pedestrians. Seems to me if you want to fly this is the way to go. Why travel on an overcrowded, pedestrian heavy street?

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Permalink Reply by MFrank on August 8, 2013 at 2:56pm

I suppose you can say my view is along the lines of anarchy. I'm no legal expert (apparently I'm a 5th grade anarchist fred armisen that acts like cartman), but the reality of the situation is that I don't feel bad because these laws aren't really enforced.

I'm not the only one on this thread who doesn't follow the law word for word:

(quotes shortened)

Jared Karczek said:

Personally, I NEVER run a red light with the exception of "T" intersections in light traffic....

Skip Montanaro 12mi said:

I will admit to being a fairly habitual stop sign coaster. It all depends on circumstances though. ... One day I counted the number of stop signs and lights I failed to stop for. I think it was 31 stop signs and one stop light (probably Glenwood and Granville, by St. Gertrude's).

David P. said:

I ride down Cortland in Bucktown on the way to/from work, and often find myself slowing at a 4-way stop to do a quasi-trackstand, Cali stop, etc. to account for and yield to traffic that has the right of way...

We all choose which laws to follow and which we can break. If you own a car you've probably driven over the speed limit. If you ride a skateboard you probably have skated someone else's property. I'm sure many of us smoked cigarettes or drank underage, and if you've never done drugs than great for you. You're not a hypocrite, but what a boring way to live.

Lisa Curcio 6.5 mi said:

Yes, the law. Your view is more along the the lines of Anarchy:

1 a : absence of government

b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority

c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order

b : absence of order

While I, and perhaps others, believe that anarchy is properly defined as 1 a and b and 2 a and b, you seem to espouse definition 1 c.

Adam Herstein (5.5 mi) said:

MFrank said:
But how you get to determine how I or other people get to ride?

The law.

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Permalink Reply by Adam Herstein on August 8, 2013 at 3:19pm

The point is that everyone does things occasionally that are against traffic law, but none of us here are actively flaunting it like you are.

Apparently you lack the maturity to tell the difference.

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Permalink Reply by MFrank on August 8, 2013 at 3:31pm

so the point is that I just shouldn't 'actively flaunt' it? is that why you are so bothered?

so I guess I'll keep breaking traffic laws on my bike. I'll just tell people that it's wrong or not say anything at all.

problem solved. case closed!

Adam Herstein (5.5 mi) said:

The point is that everyone does things occasionally that are against traffic law, but none of us here are actively flaunting it like you are.

Apparently you lack the maturity to tell the difference.

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Permalink Reply by Tom Dworzanski on August 8, 2013 at 3:31pm

You forgot to quote me dude, I said I run stuff all the time ;)

Seriously though, here's the thing. And I'm not saying this because I want to argue with you; ultimately I'm a pretty libertarian guy at heart and I like to go fast so I know we agree on a lot. But here's the thing. If you want to make a point that will persuade people, you have to do it in a way that will allow them to find some sympathy for your view. Going around and saying "I do what I want and f*** you if you don't like it" isn't a good way to convince anyone of anything, even if they agree with you. It's especially bad in this circumstance because you are making a road-freedom argument while indirectly highlighting the classic "without government we would have no safe roads" argument that destroys anarchists and libertarians alike (because frankly it's true). I mean, unless it's your intention to make cyclists sound like careless, heartless jerks, it's the wrong attitude to have.

All you're doing is hurting your own argument by giving people reasons to be against you, by alienating the areas where they agree with you, and by well, sounding like you don't care that cute, innocent, little kids should be able to cross the street without the fear of a 700C wheel slicing them in half.

I think a much more appreciated and constructive approach would be to say "the rules of the road are overly taxing on me as a cyclist, what positive ideas can I generate for society that will leave both myself and other road stakeholders in better shape?" Or if you want to be clever about it, "how can I align myself with other vulnerable stakeholders (like the aforementioned kids) to better the environment for them and myself while reducing the motor traffic that is our common detriment."

MFrank said:

I'm not the only one on this thread who doesn't follow the law word for word:

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Permalink Reply by MFrank on August 8, 2013 at 3:52pm

Much appreciated. I think the only argument I'm really trying to make is that yes the laws are there, but you need to enforce them if you want people to follow them. I run red lights in front of cops. They don't care, so why should I?

Tom D said: