The Chainlink

Is it worth it to try to educate people?

Is it worth it to try to educate people in a civil manner about biking when you're probably going to get yelled at? 

For example, this morning I was biking south on Wells around Ohio when there was a runner jogging south with traffic, in the bike lane.  She was in the buffered lane itself, not even in the parking area to the right (and with headphones on).  It's too bad I couldn't explain that she's putting bikers at risk by taking their lane in the few seconds that I passed by.    

It just puts a damper on my morning when the response to my "this is not a jogging lane" is "fuck off!" 

Julie

 

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Permalink Reply by daWillinChi on June 27, 2012 at 10:25am

Let them run, then run them over, then win the court case citing "Boub vs. Wayne Township".

Simple.

Carter O'Brien said:

And from this opinion related to the "intended user" cyclist victory of Boub vs. Wayne Township:

http://www.state.il.us/court/opinions/supremecourt/1998/october/opi...

"Second, the appellate court apparently failed to recognize the difference between `permitted' and `intended' uses under section 3-102(a) of the Act. The court noted that rural country roads are commonly used by persons other than drivers of automobiles, listing such uses as horseback riding, bicycling, jogging, walking and driving farm equipment. [Citation.] However, most of the activities listed are also common uses of city and residential streets. Illinois courts have concluded that although pedestrians may be permitted users, they are not intended users of streets outside of marked crosswalks or other areas designated and intended for the protection of pedestrians." Sisk, 167 Ill. 2d at 349.

Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on June 27, 2012 at 10:28am

Absolutely.  But if you open the floodgates so that they are intended users of the streets, that word will get out and IMO that's gonna be a mess, and would be counterproductive to all these bike improvement measures - what good is a protected lane if it means you're trapped for an entire block behind a jogger?

Tim S said:

the occasional jogger I can deal with.

Permalink Reply by Tim S on June 27, 2012 at 10:34am

Just how fat, BTW kudos to them for getting out there to work on their unbelievably large bodies, are the joggers in your neighbourhood Carter? :)

I see more scooters and motorcycles in the bike lane than joggers... in fact I would say I have easily seen 20+ M/S in the past 2 months and 1 (athletic and rather cute lady jogger) in the bike lane.


Carter O'Brien said:

Absolutely.  But if you open the floodgates so that they are intended users of the streets, that word will get out and IMO that's gonna be a mess, and would be counterproductive to all these bike improvement measures - what good is a protected lane if it means you're trapped for an entire block behind a jogger?

Tim S said:

the occasional jogger I can deal with.

Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on June 27, 2012 at 10:41am

I'm not defending it per se, it's just the way it is.  Unless you've got a different ruling it seems clear you're on your own legally-speaking if you are jogging in the street.  I'm celebrating my "have never hit an animal, vegetable or mineral" anniversary soon, but you certainly don't need my permission to test the court system if you like. 


Just Will said:

Let them run, then run them over, then win the court case citing "Boub vs. Wayne Township".

Simple.

Carter O'Brien said:

And from this opinion related to the "intended user" cyclist victory of Boub vs. Wayne Township:

http://www.state.il.us/court/opinions/supremecourt/1998/october/opi...

"Second, the appellate court apparently failed to recognize the difference between `permitted' and `intended' uses under section 3-102(a) of the Act. The court noted that rural country roads are commonly used by persons other than drivers of automobiles, listing such uses as horseback riding, bicycling, jogging, walking and driving farm equipment. [Citation.] However, most of the activities listed are also common uses of city and residential streets. Illinois courts have concluded that although pedestrians may be permitted users, they are not intended users of streets outside of marked crosswalks or other areas designated and intended for the protection of pedestrians." Sisk, 167 Ill. 2d at 349.

Permalink Reply by Julie M. on June 27, 2012 at 10:43am

I'd have to agree with Carter on this one, especially for the buffered and protected bike lanes. 

Carter O'Brien said:

Absolutely.  But if you open the floodgates so that they are intended users of the streets, that word will get out and IMO that's gonna be a mess, and would be counterproductive to all these bike improvement measures - what good is a protected lane if it means you're trapped for an entire block behind a jogger?

Tim S said:

the occasional jogger I can deal with.

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on June 27, 2012 at 10:46am

It's not a matter of the jogger being "too fat" to pass.  It's a matter of safe passing clearance.   Just like it isn't safe for a car to buzz a bike with <3-feet of clearance the same goes for joggers.   Anything less than 3-feet isn't safe because joggers are even more unpredictable and maneuverable than bikes.   Anyone who has spent ANY time riding on mixed-use trails knows that a jogger can do a sharp turn off to the left in an INSTANT (or a U-turn when they get to their halfway turn-around point) and if you are not giving them 3 you'll be right into them -smack!

So, a bicyclist approaching such a jogger in the bike lane needs to move into the traffic lane to pass them  safely -or scrub off 15MPH to crawl past them without proper clearance -speed that will have to be painstakingly made back up once clear of the hazard in the lane.    

Often it isn't possible to move over into the traffic lane if it is busy, plus it is just an added danger since the auto traffic is usually moving faster than 18-20MPH.   It just make it unsafe.

Every once in a while seeing someone in the bike lane isn't a big deal.  But when there is a sidewalk RIGHT THERE they are not using in favor of constantly endangering cyclists in the bike infrastructure it becomes a problem.  

But it isn't worth arguing with them.  They've made their decision to take the bike lane and anything anyone is going to tell them otherwise is going to be met with hostility.  I simply ding my bell and yell ON YOUR LEFT as I go by them, then signal BIG and pull back into the lane after going past so they get the point.  Other than ask for more enforcement (like that is even going to happen) there isn't anything that can be done about it. 

 

Tim S said:

Just how fat, BTW kudos to them for getting out there to work on their unbelievably large bodies, are the joggers in your neighbourhood Carter? :)

Permalink Reply by Andrew on June 27, 2012 at 10:51am

I'm not sure what this means.  Can you elaborate?

James BlackHeron said:

...then signal BIG...

Permalink Reply by Carter O'Brien on June 27, 2012 at 10:51am

I don't see a lot of joggers in the street at all, just to be clear, I see them (ironically enough) close to the lakefront in Lincoln Park, Lincoln Ave is the only street I see many. 

Scooters and smaller-engine motorcycles are apparently considered legally intended users of bike lanes, that was kind of a surprise to me, but that also IMO suggests adding joggers to the mix is a bad idea.  I think the old CBF slogan of "don't mix heels and wheels" is the best one-liner I've heard for basic urban planning philosophy.

I trust nobody here actually is advocating running over joggers, and that might be the only category of road user who has never thrown profanity my way (or I was already past therm and missed it). 


Tim S said:

Just how fat, BTW kudos to them for getting out there to work on their unbelievably large bodies, are the joggers in your neighbourhood Carter? :)

I see more scooters and motorcycles in the bike lane than joggers... in fact I would say I have easily seen 20+ M/S in the past 2 months and 1 (athletic and rather cute lady jogger) in the bike lane.


Carter O'Brien said:

Absolutely.  But if you open the floodgates so that they are intended users of the streets, that word will get out and IMO that's gonna be a mess, and would be counterproductive to all these bike improvement measures - what good is a protected lane if it means you're trapped for an entire block behind a jogger?

Tim S said:

the occasional jogger I can deal with.

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on June 27, 2012 at 11:05am

The "fancy" right signal using the left arm.

A big bold hand-signal put up with some nice snap and held all the way up for an extra few seconds -not the typical little fluff of a point most bicyclists usually do.   But the full-on left-hand up in the big L-shape with good posture.

From BikeyFace:



Andrew N said:

I'm not sure what this means.  Can you elaborate?

James BlackHeron said:

...then signal BIG...

Permalink Reply by Andrew on June 27, 2012 at 11:09am

Got it.  Almost-but-not-quite / blink-and-you-miss-it hand signals from cyclists drive me crazy.

James BlackHeron said:

The "fancy" left signal.

A big bold hand-signal put up with some nice snap and held all the way up for an extra few seconds -not the typical little fluff of a point most bicyclists usually do.   But the full-on left-hand up in the big L-shape with good posture.

From BikeyFace:



Andrew N said:

I'm not sure what this means.  Can you elaborate?

James BlackHeron said:

...then signal BIG...

Permalink Reply by Spencer "Thunderball" Thayer! on June 27, 2012 at 11:15am

Bring balloons full of goat blood on your commute.

Throw.

Problem solved.

Permalink Reply by Andrew on June 27, 2012 at 11:15am

Yes!

Sorry for a cruddy "Hey, I think that too" response, but this to me seems to be a basic consideration that isn't exercised enough by local riders.

Cameron Puetz said:

If we all give a little, we can have a much better overall system. The is no reason to be antagonistic to everyone else on the road, and that attitude guarantees a bad experience.

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