Axle swap????
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by adam shaffer on
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Here it is
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Here it is. Its still shipping so....yea.
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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on
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Are you sure the frame is 145? That is not a standard spacing for anything out there (well tandems but no normal bikes) so the frame is either bent or you are measuring wrong.
If it is 135 or 126, most common spacings, and a steel frame you should have no issues just squeezing or stretching it a bit to get the hub in.
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hmm...well I kinda just measured it with a conventional ruler when I had the wheel off for cleaning. The stock wheel fits in just fine so I may have just measured wrong (or Im remembering it wrong since I didnt write that down). If thats the case would sqeezing the frame to fit be safe and/or the ideal way of going about this?
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Well I guess I forgot how to use a ruler that day, the frame has a 125/6mm spacing which changes my question entirely. Is stretching that part of the frame something I should have a pro do?
Cameron Puetz said:Measure the frame like is shown here. On a steel bike a Miyata 90, squeezing or stretching a few mm isn't a hazard at all. I'd still put spacers in so that it just fits to make installing the wheel easier, but that's just my preference.
adam shaffer said:hmm...well I kinda just measured it with a conventional ruler when I had the wheel off for cleaning. The stock wheel fits in just fine so I may have just measured wrong (or Im remembering it wrong since I didnt write that down). If thats the case would sqeezing the frame to fit be safe and/or the ideal way of going about this?
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Just spread it evenly by hand when you install the wheel, it will be perfectly fine. Remember, you're only moving it 2mm per side which is next to nothing as far as steel is concerned; several modern bike companies, Surly and it's Gnot-rite spacing for one, actually build frames spaced at 132.5mm in order to easily fit either 130 or 135mm spaced hubs.
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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on
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Sheldon Brown wrote a good web article explaining his views on frame-spacing and cold-setting steel frames.
I agree with most of it* and with Dug that you can probably get away with just spreading the rear triangle one size and just riding it that way with a steel frame. It works, but there are a few minor issues that might pop up doing this.
One issue is that some derailleurs are extremely temperamental about drop-out alignment. When you spread out the rear triangle, even by a few mm's you are going to create a situation where the rear dropouts are no longer going to be parallel with each other. Along with the rear dropouts not being parallel,, you are going to have the derailleur hanger not being EXACTLY in the same plane as the rear wheel any longer as it is attached to the dropout.
This just may or may not effect clean/crisp shifts in an 8,9, or 10-speed indexed system. It will probably make it noisier and the bogies are going to make more noise on the chain as is snakes through the cage. Poor derailleur alignment is the #1 cause of driveline noise and chatter, especially in a precise finely-spaced indexed derailleur system. Aligning the dropout will do wonders for quieting down a noisy driveline.So, while you are probably going to get away with it and it isn't going to hurt anything (for the most part) it is not the optimal situation. Cold-setting a steel frame to the proper wheel spacing is the best way, short of just sticking with wheels that have an over-locknut dimension that matches your frame. Too bad that progress means change and newer wheels just need more room to do their 8+ speed magic.
*one thing I don't like about sheldon's lumber spreading system is that his method puts a LOT of stress into the middle of the unsupported seat-tube. When I spread a frame I like to put another piece of lumber between the BB shell and the top of the seat tube (with seatpost inserted to help support it) so that there isn't a chance of bending the seat tube.
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Well I'm not too concerned with derailleur alignment since this is actually gonna be a single speed. Thanks for the help everyone.
BTW I'm new to the chainlink and I couldn't help but notice there aren't any SS groups here...whats up with that?
James BlackHeron said:Sheldon Brown wrote a good web article explaining his views on frame-spacing and cold-setting steel frames.
I agree with most of it* and with Dug that you can probably get away with just spreading the rear triangle one size and just riding it that way with a steel frame. It works, but there are a few minor issues that might pop up doing this.
One issue is that some derailleurs are extremely temperamental about drop-out alignment. When you spread out the rear triangle, even by a few mm's you are going to create a situation where the rear dropouts are no longer going to be parallel with each other. Along with the rear dropouts not being parallel,, you are going to have the derailleur hanger not being EXACTLY in the same plane as the rear wheel any longer as it is attached to the dropout.
This just may or may not effect clean/crisp shifts in an 8,9, or 10-speed indexed system. It will probably make it noisier and the bogies are going to make more noise on the chain as is snakes through the cage. Poor derailleur alignment is the #1 cause of driveline noise and chatter, especially in a precise finely-spaced indexed derailleur system. Aligning the dropout will do wonders for quieting down a noisy driveline.So, while you are probably going to get away with it and it isn't going to hurt anything (for the most part) it is not the optimal situation. Cold-setting a steel frame to the proper wheel spacing is the best way, short of just sticking with wheels that have an over-locknut dimension that matches your frame. Too bad that progress means change and newer wheels just need more room to do their 8+ speed magic.
*one thing I don't like about sheldon's lumber spreading system is that his method puts a LOT of stress into the middle of the unsupported seat-tube. When I spread a frame I like to put another piece of lumber between the BB shell and the top of the seat tube (with seatpost inserted to help support it) so that there isn't a chance of bending the seat tube.
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A quick touch up of the hanger angle with a derailleur alignment gauge will take care of any shifting issue that may occur due to the derailleur hanger not being straight after spreading the rear triangle.
Sheldon's spacing method is complete crap; a better job can be done with a couple pieces of threaded rod, one right hand threads the other left, a turnbuckle and some nuts. It will always spread evenly, is simple to do in a precise manner and you can set it up so it aligns the dropouts as you widen, or narrow, the frame.
That said for the small spread you need just stuff the wheel in it and be done with it.
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Do people align derailleur hangers without bothering to align the dropouts first? I suppose it could be done to save a step, but sounds sort of cobby. Might as well do the job right if one has the skill and the tools to do the one they oould have the skill and tools to do the other.
I don't like the turnbuckle method because there is no guarantee the yield pressure on both sides of the rear triangle are going to be perfectly equal. This causes a very good chance that one side is going to spread before the other -thus throwing off the entire frame alignment. This is why I don't use it. I really hate bikes that pull to one side or the rear wheel isn't in line with the frame. I know a lot of people like doing it this way but I feel that spreading each side individually gives more consistent end results. Plus, if the frame isn't straight to begin with it's the only way to get it back straight. The turnbuckle method only works when the frame was perfectly straight to begin with. I've found that many used frames are a little bit off. I'm amazed when I'm out riding around and following other people how many frames are wacked as far as rear wheel alignment is concerned. There is consensus over at bikeforums.net that a lot of bikes come really messed up from the factory -especially DO and hanger alignment. I guess the bike-boom mentality never really wore off with many bike and frame manufacturers.
Using a modified sheldon method one can spread each side the required distance (half of what is needed) very carefully a little bit of a time until the desired spread is reached -checking often with a caliper to monitor progress. So if one is going from say 126mm to 130mm one can spread each side, in turn, 2.5mm to give an extra mm of over-shoot and a target of 131mm. I've found that it is best to measure the OLD at the very front of the dropout and when the DO's are aligned that extra 1mm disappears when they are pulled back parallel. After that I check the hanger to make sure it is OK as well. Usually it is pretty darn close but I'm super OCD so I like it spot on exact. Aim small, miss small is my theory.
I also like to put my home-made alignment bolts into the Dropouts BEFORE I spread the frame. This stabilizes and protects the dropouts, keeping them planar while messing around with the frame. Once the dropouts get bent and torqued out of plane top to bottom it becomes REALLY difficult to align them again -especially without the "correct" alignment tools, and bending them around is not a good thing. Nobody wants a dropout shaped like a Pringles potato chip. This goes double for DO's with threaded alignment screws at the rear which make them weaker and more susceptible to bending and/or cracking at that point.
I'm not a frame-builder. If a braze and/or weld goes bad on me, or a part of the frame cracks or separates when I'm aligning a frame it's going to cost me dearly to get it fixed by someone at a higher pay grade than me. For the most part that just made a frame worth less than scrap value as it costs more to fix than another used one can be sourced from CL.
I've bent a lot of tube in my life as a commercial electrician. Bending metal isn't that hard when you get the hang of it. Steel is wonderful stuff, it will bend without weakening and keep its new shape. The trick is doing it so that it doesn't damage, dent, or kink the tubing, and the end resulting new bends are pleasing to the eye and not look like it was done by bending it around a likely-looking tree out back.
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Home made alignment bolts? How do these work?
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Again, Sheldon says...
It's not as nice as the Park versions, but if you start with a known good (unbent) axle and cut it in half, and use the cone and locknuts that came with the axle what you have is a very accurate alignment gauge. They take a bit more of an educated eye to see the finer alignment issues but it isn't very hard if you have experience and a good eye.
I use a jeweler's loupe visor for close-in work. It's amazing that even brand new frames have little bit of misalignment that can be easily seen with such a home-made tool. If I can get dropouts better aligned with this tool than many frame manufacturers can with new bikes I will call that good.
My shop is a hobby shop just for my own pleasure as I enjoy working on bikes for myself and for friends and vetted clients. Much of the work I do is for charity or for causes I believe in -I'm not a big shop or anything close to an LBS. I wouldn't want to be. It's love, not a job. That'd ruin it.
But even so, I do own quite a few specialized tools -some that I've built myself, and some that I've purchased. Just today I bought a bottom bracket chasing and facing tool. Some stuff is just better to have rather than paying the friendly folks at the LBS to use their specialized tools (although I don't have a problem doing that either when I need it -they have to eat too.) I figured with a tool like a bottom bracket chase & face tool it'll pay for itself in a few uses. But I can't make something like that out of an old axle like I can with the drop-out alignment tool
I can't justify buying the $400 Pork tool when the old axles work nearly as well. I only do an alignment like this every month or so. If I did it every day i'd own the Park version.
adam shaffer said:Home made alignment bolts? How do these work?
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